Could there be too many beekeepers?

[victor meldrew]

Lots of people havent got the money today to pick whatever they want off the supermarket shelves. If they want honey, they buy cheap honey. No doubt they buy cheap strawberry jam as well.
If you confront people at work to get them to buy a raffle ticket they are inclined to say OK because its less embarrasing than trying to say they dont want any because they are watching the pennies. They will probably buy your honey for the same reason, but next time you ask them you might get the answer that they havent finished the last lot.


I'd rather at least sell some of something and make some profit than sell none.

I sell stuff on ebay that I make. I dont price it at what I think I deserve.
I price it to sell. If I increased the price I wouldnt sell as much.

When working I had a captive market, I've retired now and sell honey at the door . Some to existing customers and some to cold callers .
The cold caller market has slowed considerably ! I sell to ex colleagues but only the ones who live locally !
VM

 

[merylvingien]

Lots of people havent got the money today to pick whatever they want off the supermarket shelves. If they want honey, they buy cheap honey. No doubt they buy cheap strawberry jam as well.
If you confront people at work to get them to buy a raffle ticket they are inclined to say OK because its less embarrasing than trying to say they dont want any because they are watching the pennies. They will probably buy your honey for the same reason, but next time you ask them you might get the answer that they havent finished the last lot.


I'd rather at least sell some of something and make some profit than sell none.

I sell stuff on ebay that I make. I dont price it at what I think I deserve.
I price it to sell. If I increased the price I wouldnt sell as much.

I find it strange that you would embarrass people into buying your product!

Personaly i would rather have people asking me to supply a unique product of limited supply that i could charge a reasonable amount for it.

 

[Dishmop]

I find it strange that you would embarrass people into buying your product!

Personaly i would rather have people asking me to supply a unique product of limited supply that i could charge a reasonable amount for it.

I wouldnt embarrass them. It is they who feel a state of embarrasement by saying no. They think it makes them look like a skinflint, or that they cant afford it. I believe its an English thing. Ever heard the people who say they were forced into signing up for a timeshare.."We couldnt get out of the room". You get up and walk away. You say No. Not interested. **** off. Tell them you are an undischarged bankrupt.


I am sure that sellers of every product would like to be in a position whereby people came to them, and if they are prepared to pay a price that you are happy with for your unique product then good, but a recurring problem especially in this country, is that when sales go down, prices seem to go up, and it doesnt always work to maintain the same level of income for the trader, because people buy even less.
If people buy your goods and you have more than covered your costs you have made a profit. The deciding factor on profit % required is why are you selling honey? Sole income, extra income, or just because you have the honey from your hobby?

 

[BBG]

Someone seems to have missed the point of the original question "Could there be too many beekeepers ."
The number of beekeepers in the UK hasn't reached saturation point and are unlikely to do so any time soon."

Don't know how you consture that??

We mustn't forget the pollination aspect of beekeeping . Pollination of none commercial varieties of flora!.

I don't forget this, for the past many years I have been writing to 3 MPs, a Minister 2 Local Councils (98 Councillors), Four District Councils and Councillors, 2 MEPs and anybody else who might be of help in returning some of our traditional flora and fauna. In the early 80s we wrote to MAFF et al asking for imports to be banned until varroa was brought under control abroad. And you have done ....... ???


"The average number of hives maintained by amateur (for the love of it ) beekeepers is 5 .
These are spread around in places of little interest to the commercial beekeeper with higher numbers of hives located in greater quantities but located for maximum yield or pollination fees !
There is room for all aspects of the hobby to co-exist ! "

Yes, we understand demographics

"Some of your comments could be construed as the uttering's of an aspiring commercial beekeeper wishing the competition to be eradicated ?"

To think that any one person could stop the steam-roller of government promotion would be foolish in the extreme and bigger fools look on or think it. BTW as well as incorrect assumptions, the use of the word uttering's is incorrect AND on behalf of the Apostrophe Abuse society I would like to say there is no need for an apostrophe in utterings as it is plural not possessive. Some help available here

Reference to 'Tax avoidance :- . Have you really done the sum's ?
If you were to tabulate the outgoings of the average hobbyist beekeeper , including all the equipment , medication, education, insurance , bottles, jars ,lids ,labels transportation costs, feeding ( Up to June in the occasional really bad year) and a host of hidden expenses . You would find very little if indeed, any profit from a varying number of hives from 1-5 !

The government wants the number of bees increased and the other business that generates is good for HMRC too, so they leave things alone while it's going along nicely.

I did not refer to Tax avoidance and IF that is what I meant I would have said Tax evasion.

I said:

"Sounds like he COULD be one of the "monkey see monkey do" brigade who sell cheap and make a rod for the backs of those who are asking a fair price AND providing employment AND paying tax on the proceeds........... ??
"

"The pollination by honey bees in urban areas is vital for a whole system of interdependent life forms from the humblest of insect to the Birds Ect. Well thank you Oh Wise One
No, the hobbyist IS the back bone of beekeeping . Remember the age of the hobbyist commencement is 50 plus , no one lives forever ( Except one I know ,who is working hard at it )
Live and let live !!!!
VM

[B]Live and let live - have never thought of it any other way - it's usually other people making assumptions on what I'm doing or saying that causes the problem - sound familiar?????[/B]

BTW the word sums doesn't need an apostrophe - it's not possessive it's plural and stands on its own without an ' Help available as above.

Hope this helps clarify how I look on things and what I DID say not what you thought I said.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Nevermind, soon be spring

 

[Dishmop]

Nevermind, soon be spring

I bloody hope so. Its been raining here for two days.

 

[BBG]

Nevermind, soon be spring

Pretty much is in sunny Devon with only the odd cloud on bright days.

 

[casualman]

The real problem with selling Honey is that being a good beekeeper does not automativcally mean you are a good business man. It's all down to marketing and I'm afraid that is very amaturist in this country. You only have to look at the dire labelling beekeepers use, lack of marketing, use of boring 1lb jars.

 

[drumgerry]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Casualman.

I have no problems convincing anyone that my clover honey and heather honey are a premium (and rare) product and they are accordingly willing to pay the prices I charge. We also sold heather honey in 1lb jars at our association's AGM in January and sold out at £7 per jar.

Is the bulk honey that the commercial men can't get rid of OSR honey in the main? If it's anything else I'm at a loss as to why it can't be shifted and at a good price.

 

[Dishmop]

One point to mention is that when we produce something we naturally assume that its the best, and we are proud of ourselves and that everybody will want to buy it. And if it doesnt sell we blame the public.

Too many beekeepers?

If I was making a healthy profit selling honey and somebody else down the road started selling it cheaper I'd be pretty pissed off, but it works the other way round as well.
In that instance yes as far as I am concerned there is one too many but I dont think that the hobby beek who sells to cover their costs is going to cause a problem to the commercial beek who deals with wholesalers.

 

[tonybloke]

I bloody hope so. Its been raining here for two days.

well, it started yesterday morning, so yes, it's been raining on two consecutive days, but not for 48hrs ( yet)

 

[nelletap]

Perhaps at the time the CCD was unknown the protein level in the hive was higher so they could cope with with more stresses? I agree that there is still lots to be found out, but the protein level argument (higher quality protein pollens meaning bees can fight off more stresses - eg temperature extremes, difficulties of periods of only one available pollen) still makes sense to me.
Interestingly, another point made in that talk was that vipers bugloss is an excellent pollen; sunflower, weeping willow and lavender are poor pollens. I believe he also pointed out as an aside that OSR pollen is less good than field bean pollen but the bee's choice contradicts this.

 

[mbc]

Perhaps at the time the CCD was unknown the protein level in the hive was higher so they could cope with with more stresses? I agree that there is still lots to be found out, but the protein level argument (higher quality protein pollens meaning bees can fight off more stresses - eg temperature extremes, difficulties of periods of only one available pollen) still makes sense to me.
Interestingly, another point made in that talk was that vipers bugloss is an excellent pollen; sunflower, weeping willow and lavender are poor pollens. I believe he also pointed out as an aside that OSR pollen is less good than field bean pollen but the bee's choice contradicts this.

Certainly a healthy, varied diet seems like a good idea for bees as well as humans, but what talk are you on about nelletap ?

 

[Into the lions den]

I agree that there is still lots to be found out, but the protein level argument (higher quality protein pollens meaning bees can fight off more stresses - eg temperature extremes, difficulties of periods of only one available pollen) still makes sense to me.

That there is a nutritional factor at play in some way was originally taken as read, and indeed may still be involved in some way.

So far so good, and it suits the agendas of some to blame it all on migratory beekeepers and the so called 'feed lot' ways of pollinator enterprises, and also on monocultures. Whilst many of the worst cases are indeed in this sector, it has also hit the apiaries of static beekeepers, organic beekeepers, and beekeepers in areas of abundant wilderness.

Stress could be setting up a vulnerability to a varied cocktail of ailments, not an exact same mix in all cases. That stress could be climatic. It was said that all the early CCD cases were in bees that had endured severe drought at some time in the previous 18 months, although some cases were found in the opposite, areas that had had unusually wet weather and the bees went through weather stress for that reason. Having endured a significant period of extreme forage curtailing weather seems to be a common factor.

Now, we do not have CCD as such in the UK, but if I have a winter of bad losses it is rearely down to the winter itself, more a bad late summer the year before, or even two years before if too many small colonies struggled through the first post stress season without prospering. If serious stress can have such a long term knock on effect here, what price it being the same in North America? The bees are worked hard there*, and if also seriously stressed collapses can hit quickly. The search for a single pathogen may prove futile as it may just not be there, and most of the things they HAVE found are also here in the UK. Without the acute stress they are benign, add the stress and they are deadly.


* By which I mean worked hard for no great gain, as in pollination work. Worked hard in areas of honey production where nutrition etc is all there naturally actually does a lot of good to the bees.

 

[BBG]

I read somewhere that almond blossom didn't give any decent nectar - this would create the circumstances you outline for bees with ONLY almonds to pollinate for miles around them.

??

 

[victor meldrew]

Nevermind, soon be spring

VM

 

[Bob Bee]

what a great thread this has turned out to be.

 

[RoofTops]

I read somewhere that almond blossom didn't give any decent nectar - this would create the circumstances you outline for bees with ONLY almonds to pollinate for miles around them.

Something like over 20% of colonies used to die at the almond orchards in California before CDD, I was told. It was I understood simply down to the poor quality of the pollen. The ground below the trees was also kept clear of any other flowers the bees might be tempted by - see below. Good for the trees, no competition, bad news for local insects.

 

[BBG]

Grim foraging.

 

[Dishmop]

I dont suppose a few thousand miles on the back of a truck helped much.