Could there be too many beekeepers?

[BBG]

A while ago the EU gave UK £10M to look into the plight of the honeybee (roughly)

UK decide to spend most of the money on investigating pollinators in general NOT just the honeybee.

??? New department, another CE, staff, property, vehicles etc etc etc ?????

 

[Finman]

.
In my country some professional beekeepers said 40 years ago that in Finland we have beekeepers too much and too much honery. That is why beekeeping teaching must be stopped.

Just now vanishing of bees has inpired young people and basic course are full of people.

 

[Dishmop]

Ive also realised theres always some one prepared to sell theres cheaper than the next person

Better than not selling any at all.

 

[Dishmop]

A while ago the EU gave UK £10M to look into the plight of the honeybee (roughly)

UK decide to spend most of the money on investigating pollinators in general NOT just the honeybee.

??? New department, another CE, staff, property, vehicles etc etc etc ?????

Did that research re-discover the Waggle Dance yet again?

 

[Chris B]

There is another factor at play here too..

New beekeepers are not taking significant market share but growing their own markets, family, friends and neighbours who wouldn't be consuming nearly so much honey if they didn't know their own beekeeper. My brother-in-law started last year, produced > 100lb and sold it all at work within weeks.

 

[mbc]

There is another factor at play here too..

New beekeepers are not taking significant market share but growing their own markets, family, friends and neighbours who wouldn't be consuming nearly so much honey if they didn't know their own beekeeper. My brother-in-law started last year, produced > 100lb and sold it all at work within weeks.

Excellent point, once new customers get turned on to local honey it would be difficult for them to turn to the cheapest imported supermarket stuff and think they were buying an equivalent product.

 

[mbc]

.
Actually the 175000 already contains a generous allowance for those not members of anything. It also includes over 300 beekeepers as being of a commercial persuasion. Even in the BFA the lions share of members are sideliners. There are probably under 50 full time bee entities in the UK.

There are four "full time bee entities" within 40 miles of me, I cant believe this is enormously disproportional to density figures in other areas, especially the more favourable honey areas.

.What ILTD thinks is beside the point. The EU money is available under several headings, the UK claims under only two. All are only eligible under the 'improvement of production and marketing' umbrella, and of the provisions the uk only takes its share under 'technical assistance' and 'control of varroasis. (Its EU Regulation 1234/2007 btw if you feel like ploughing through it all)

Specifically EXCLUDED are measures related to disease, OTHER than varroasis (so AFB and EFB work NOT covered)..........and such work should be under national funding. Also a no no is substitution of EU funding for national funding in pre existing nationally funded projects or measures. The EU money was for NEW items, primarily related to the production and marketing of apicultural products.

That the UK snaffled the lot for the NBU and inspectors is not in dispute. They were pre existing programmes and should not have been funded this way. Use for disease prevention/detection was not the intent. Astrid Lulling, known as the mother of beekeeping over in Brussels, has plenty to say about this subject, and basically accuses several countries, including the UK, of theft.

It just aint how its happening. The UK should be paying for the NBU and the inspections, and the EU money (which the UK would have to match fund too) should be for extra things.

HUGE and complex subject.

Thanks for the clarification, but do you have any suggestions on how to change the situation ( ie. what "extra things"?)?

 

[Into the lions den]

There is another factor at play here too..

New beekeepers are not taking significant market share but growing their own markets, family, friends and neighbours who wouldn't be consuming nearly so much honey if they didn't know their own beekeeper. My brother-in-law started last year, produced > 100lb and sold it all at work within weeks.

Of course Chris, and this honey never shows up in the 'traded' part of the harvest although it iS in the 20% of the national honey supply. Obviously its an arbitrary and very approximate count, very much as the estimate of national hive numbers is on the same basis, as we can never truly know how many beekeepers, and how much honey, are under the radar. You can only make an 'educated' guess. It really does not matter a lot if the figure is 10 or 20% out either way, its the general picture we have rather than a precise one.

However, an example of the current developing problems close to both our hearts could be that of retail sales of their own UK honey through the Co-op stores. It almost halved in 12 months as customer sentiment and, more importantly, economics moved against it. Yes it was way too expensive anyway, but now we have a situation where twelve months ago it was a national line, but sales collapsed to about half previous levels, and as result it was delisted by many of the regional Co-op groups, which in turn drops sales still further. The situation has swung from one of huge optimism and a 'go go go' attitude, to one where they are sitting on a large stockpile of honey and looking at taking a heavy loss dumping it on the market in bulk, and are now rather downbeat about the whole 'retail our own farm produced honey' concept. They still want the bees and the pollination, but the future is bulk disposal for now (it may change as the economic cycle changes) and things are not at all rosy as they will basically be selling to the same few faces that buy significant bulk as you and I can direct. The golden days of knowing you had a secure market at top prices there are gone for now, and in its place is still a secure market, but at a discount from open market.

I had a rather despair laden call from one of the largest producers in the UK, a gentleman of a Yorkshire persuasion, who is stuck with much of last years blossom honey, and cannot even get a single offer to buy, not even at a huge discount, as the packers are stocked up fully, and have minimal sales levels at present and no sign of a pick up. Its not a nice scenario thats building up out there. We have to exploit every point of difference we can right now to keep our returns up.

For now the hope of bulk sales lies with the intermediate scale packers and the beekeeper/packers who do not produce enough of their own, but they cannot collectively absorb the current stockpile.

The market will return, but just when and at what type of price level remains very much in doubt.

Important to stress, as some have pointed out, that local and niche markets are far less influenced by this, and they are not subject to the vagaries of the mass market for honey.

 

[Into the lions den]

Thanks for the clarification, but do you have any suggestions on how to change the situation ( ie. what "extra things"?)?

The extra things are clearly specified headings in the EU regulations. Complete interpretations are published in other languages, and the ones I usually read are the French ones.

In the UK alone the money is mainly spent on assisting and educating amateur beekeepers, but in other countries they are actually excluded as it is not considered that entities below a certain level are deemed suitable targets for aid with 'production and marketing' initiatives.

However..........

the prescribed headings are thus.

Varroa control (including measures to reduce the cost of treatments)

Tachnical assistance (which is MEANT to be with advice and support for packing facilities, labs for checking the bees, purchase of varroa floors and a whole heap more.)

Assistance with buying equipment for 'transhumance'. Vehicles excluded but trailers, cranes, and loaders qualify.

Restocking after losses ( If losses exceed 20% of the entity, and even then only to that proportion of restocking in excess of the 20% loss rate)

Measure to suport external labs analysing the physico-chemical properties of honey.

Cooperation with specialised bodies for the implementation
of applied research programmes in the field of beekeeping
and apiculture products.

Although not specifically mentioned in the regulation there are numerous side regulations that imping on the main one that mean the above grouping are not exactly as written in 1234/2007. For example there is a minimum spend level to qualify too, so tiny projects do not get anything, although its not clear just whether that is to avoid huge number of small claims to process or if the intention to support the commercial sector (as it is implemeted elsewhere) is the purpose. To qualify in some state you need to have 150 hives, but note that this need not be as an individual, it can be a partnership or even a co-operating association.

I have my own opinions on the matter but the question is about what is being done and what can be done with the money. These are the regulations about the apiculture programme, and the UK position has been, and remains, the subject of much debate at a high level.

One point has been made perfectly clear. ALL UK beekeepers can forget about ever seeing actual cash, however they work it the money will be taken in nationally and WILL all be spent 'in house' and not allowed to trickle down, and the UK govt claims its full entitlement, just all concentrated into only two headings.

It may be of interest to some, but each examination carried out by an inspector is charged out offically at 200 pounds per colony ( not sure if that is exact or approximate) and the rate it is claimed at doubled in three years. Exit EU money pot very very fast..............

 

[ROACHMAN]

..

I find it not surprising that so many people are so eager to take up beekeeping due fuelled by the publicity over the past few years over the plight of the honey bee.

There must be a large proportion of new beekeepers that take up the hobby that with hind sight probably wish they hadnt.

As anyone with more than a years experience will tell you, what looks like a fairly straightforward hobby is fraught with potential problems and angst .

The first year is relatively straightworward for the new beekeepers as they watch their nuc grow into a full colony with little input. The second season sorts out the dedicated ones from the rest once they have encountered swarm prevention measures, varroa control, drone laying queens, laying workers, mice, woodpeckers, waxmoth, EFB, AFB, Nosema etc,etc,etc. All these potential pitfalls contribute to making this hobby so interesting for the long term beekeeper.

It would be interesting to know the percentage drop out of new beeks and also the percentage of new beeks that loose their first colony in their first year.

 

[AnotherNewBee]

The first year is relatively straightworward for the new beekeepers as they watch their nuc grow into a full colony with little input. The second season sorts out the dedicated ones from the rest once they have encountered swarm prevention measures, varroa control, drone laying queens, laying workers, mice, woodpeckers, waxmoth, EFB, AFB, Nosema etc,etc,etc. All these potential pitfalls contribute to making this hobby so interesting for the long term beekeeper.

To say nothing of the hooded ape.

Sage advice. Hopefully I have a thick enough skin to make it through the learning curve. I'll let you know in 20 years...

 

[Poly Hive]

It certainly would but how that figure could be found I ain't a clue.

The real joke is that the so called plight of the bee never actually existed. Yes numbers of keepers dropped but when I recall the AGM of the ADBAssoc which had a membership of 450 or so and a good 100 would turn up for the honey show and AGM it was obvious at a glance that there was to be a dip in membership in the not too distant future as the scythe swung as it does for us all.

Age was the real factor in the drop and as interest is generated in the younger people the numbers duly rise again. It's circular.

PH

 

[Chris B]

The market will return, but just when and at what type of price level remains very much in doubt.

I agree Murray. It's a "thin" market and anything could happen. It's certainly more about public demand than good/bad honey years. And therein lies the answer perhaps - the honey we produce is as good as anybody's (I currently have 4 trophies sitting at home) but we just produce a lot more than most. Bulk production doesn't affect quality but by the time it hits a supermarket shelf it's become "mass-produced" and somehow perceived as inferior. The public just need educating a bit, a task that's getting to be easily achievable in this social media age. And at the end of the day I'll take £1.65 if I have no alternative, but at that rate I'd be highly motivated to spend more time on marketing and I don't doubt I can shift the lions share of it that way, even the rape. I might have more trouble on your scale though.

 

[user 6228]

The market will return, but just when and at what type of price level remains very much in doubt.

I agree Murray. It's a "thin" market and anything could happen. It's certainly more about public demand than good/bad honey years. And therein lies the answer perhaps - the honey we produce is as good as anybody's (I currently have 4 trophies sitting at home) but we just produce a lot more than most. Bulk production doesn't affect quality but by the time it hits a supermarket shelf it's become "mass-produced" and somehow perceived as inferior. The public just need educating a bit, a task that's getting to be easily achievable in this social media age. And at the end of the day I'll take £1.65 if I have no alternative, but at that rate I'd be highly motivated to spend more time on marketing and I don't doubt I can shift the lions share of it that way, even the rape. I might have more trouble on your scale though.

real honey needs a sustained well funded national campaign to differentiate it from the mass market. it can be done, it has been done
with beer

 

[Black Comb]

2 pieces of advice I received when I started :-

1. It will take you at lest 5 years to become reasonably competent.

2. There's no money in honey.

 

[Chris B]

real honey needs a sustained well funded national campaign to differentiate it from the mass market. it can be done, it has been done
with beer

CAMRH? I like it.

 

[BBG]

Chris B

"New beekeepers are not taking significant market share but growing their own markets, family, friends and neighbours who wouldn't be consuming nearly so much honey if they didn't know their own beekeeper. My brother-in-law started last year, produced > 100lb and sold it all at work within weeks."

Yes, but how much a pound was he selling for?

Sounds like he COULD be one of the "monkey see monkey do" brigade who sell cheap and make a rod for the backs of those who are asking a fair price AND providing employment AND paying tax on the proceeds........... ??

ITLD
Ref small units not getting any money - 000s, sometimes as much as £30K is granted to LAs who are registered charities and "engaged in research" such as working out how to count bees coming in and going out of the hive and other well-deserved causes such as

studying the Waggle dance in case it's changed.

 

[victor meldrew]

Super market honey for display purposes has been 'polished'.
It's temperature has been elevated (pasteurised ) in order to extend shelf life , by that I mean appearance wise . Johnny public viewing a jar of honey displaying insipid granulation is likely to regard it as having gone off!.
The mass market demands ,runny honey to be sparkly clear . Soft set to be uniformly so !
If the pasteurisation is controlled properly IE temp no more than 60c, quickly chilled back to ambient , then the honey should be as good as any home produced !
How many (hand on heart ) have popped the odd couple of jars on top of a radiator / aga just to clear it without any real idea of how long it's been there or what the final temperature has reached ?
VM

 

[BBG]

Have you tasted the ASDA honey at £1 a Lb.

It is foul - akin to axle grease.

 

[Poly Hive]

Education of the general public is what is required.

PH