Chemically treated hive going natural

[Saskclaud]

Hello,

I have a friend who has been given some bees. They have just been treated with one of the aweful chemicals for varroa. This friend would like to go natural, and not use any chemicals. I'm worried that because these bees have already been treated, the varroa will drastically rise as a result of the weekened bees and strengthened varroa if not ever treated again. Can anyone suggest any additional steps to limit the increase in varroa from an already treated hive please?

Thanks so much,

Heather

 

[midnight sun]

Hello,

I have a friend who has been given some bees. They have just been treated with one of the aweful chemicals for varroa. This friend would like to go natural, and not use any chemicals. I'm worried that because these bees have already been treated, the varroa will drastically rise as a result of the weekened bees and strengthened varroa if not ever treated again. Can anyone suggest any additional steps to limit the increase in varroa from an already treated hive please?

Thanks so much,

Heather

You don't say how these bees have been 'treated' ie: with what. Why should the bees be weakened and the varroa strengthened. I do not understand your logic from what you write.
I am not as experienced as many on this forum, but I would say that if you leave those bees to 'go natural', your friend will only have bees for a season (if you are lucky) and then they will be dead.
More cruel than 'awful chemicals', believe me. How would you like blood sucking mites on you 24/7?
Perhaps someone will be along shortly to correct me, but I don't think there will be a queue. We treat bees for a good reason not just for the hell of it.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but it needs to be said.
If your friend wants to look after bees then that is what they should do, but properly and responsibly.
Regards

P.S. I think your 'avatar' has the wrong sign?

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Hello,

I have a friend who has been given some bees. They have just been treated with one of the aweful chemicals for varroa. This friend would like to go natural, and not use any chemicals. I'm worried that because these bees have already been treated, the varroa will drastically rise as a result of the weekened bees and strengthened varroa if not ever treated again. Can anyone suggest any additional steps to limit the increase in varroa from an already treated hive please?

Thanks so much,

Heather

Responsible beekeepers treat to stop varroa and the virus and other diseases from degrading the colony with frequently fatal results for the colony. Thymol, Oxalic Acid and Formic acid are derived originally from plants so not awful chemicals in my estimation. Synthetic treatments which were used for some years worked for a while but varroa developed resistance, making them virtually useless.
Do your friend a favour and encourage them to treat the colony against varroa.

 

[pargyle]

You don't say how these bees have been 'treated' ie: with what. Why should the bees be weakened and the varroa strengthened. I do not understand your logic from what you write.
I am not as experienced as many on this forum, but I would say that if you leave those bees to 'go natural', your friend will only have bees for a season (if you are lucky) and then they will be dead.
More cruel than 'awful chemicals', believe me. How would you like blood sucking mites on you 24/7?
Perhaps someone will be along shortly to correct me, but I don't think there will be a queue. We treat bees for a good reason not just for the hell of it.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but it needs to be said.
If your friend wants to look after bees then that is what they should do, but properly and responsibly.
Regards

P.S. I think your 'avatar' has the wrong sign?

Not everyone treats their bees for varroa .. I don't think their are many on here who use 'awful chemicals' - mostly thymol based treatments and Oxalic acid in various ways. I don't treat my bees and they haven't died - purveying rubbish like 'your friend will only have bees for a season and then they will be dead' just shows ignorance and a lack of knowledge.

To the OP
Going to a no treatment regime is no harder than stopping treating them .. but .. in association with that you have to have enough knowledge to check (properly) for mite levels on a very regular basis and take steps to use the various options available that don't need 'awful chemicals' [not my words or belief I would hasten to add] adding to the hive.

My untreated bees are very healthy, prolific and have very low varroa levels - although mite levels do fluctuate at times. I've had no brood diseases, no DWV, no nosema and my bees are well mannered and a pleasure to handle. It's not all about not treating though .. my hives are heavily insulated, my frames are foundationless and I leave enough honey in the hive for them to overwinter on their own stores.

However, if you ask me would I never treat - the answer is never say never - so far I have not had to and I seriously hope to continue in the same way but it takes a bit of thought and more effort than a more conventional approach.

'Going natural' is far too emotive a phrase .. I prefer low interference as any beekeeping outside of a hollow tree cannot really be considered at all natural ... some people really get their knickers in a twist and equate low interference with people who just get bees and leave them to their own devices ... a situation which I deplore as this is truly irresponsible. However, I know a fair few beekeepers who would describe themselves as 'conventional' who believe that all that is required is a bit of swarm prevention, two doses of varroacides a year and then rip all the honey they can out of the hives and leave the bees with just sugar water for the winter - I have as much problem with these 'leave alone' beekeepers.

There are a growing number of people in British beekeeping who are taking a low interference approach and for many of us this is working - I know of one beekeeper local to me who has not treated his bees for 8 years now and his losses are actually less than some other local apiarists who are completely conventional ... including open hole crown boards and matchsticks !!

Your friend needs to read a bit more and see what is required for a beekeeper who does not want to treat their bees ... it's not an easy path and there will be plenty of no-sayers and doom merchants to contend with - but it is possible.

 

[user 6228]

Responsible beekeepers treat to stop varroa and the virus and other diseases from degrading the colony with frequently fatal results for the colony. Thymol, Oxalic Acid and Formic acid are derived originally from plants so not awful chemicals in my estimation. Synthetic treatments which were used for some years worked for a while but varroa developed resistance, making them virtually useless.
Do your friend a favour and encourage them to treat the colony against varroa.

There is in academic research, strong indications that beekeepers by repeated varroacide treatments are stopping Varroa and HoneyBees coming into equilibrium where the impact of the varroa and their virus are reduced to tolerable levels,

We are in the not treating camp because we do not know the safe levels of varroacide for the environment we keep bees in. Additionally we have seen further research that indicates that some environments can tip the balance strongly in the bees favour.

To tell someone that regular treating of bees is an obligation of beekeeping is a gross oversimplification and abuse of peer pressure on what is a complex issues,

In my opinion Beekeepers should make efforts to learn the facts and then make an informed decision rather than bow to group pressure of "to be a responsible beekeeper treat."

 

[Bosleeu]

Varroa tolerance can be found in some colonies, and if we build on that by selecting we can strengthen that trait, as has been done by some.

To simply not treat your bees will not necessarily achieve that and may lead to your bees suffering if you don't treat them at all. Not what I signed up for when I got bees.

If a colony needs treating, I do that, but if they have low mite levels I don't. Not all chemicals are awful, in fact most chemicals can be useful or harmful depending on how wisely or foolishly they are used.

 

[Bosleeu]

There is in academic research, strong indications that beekeepers by repeated varroacide treatments are stopping Varroa and HoneyBees coming into equilibrium where the impact of the varroa and their virus are reduced to tolerable levels,

We are in the not treating camp because we do not know the safe levels of varroacide for the environment we keep bees in. Additionally we have seen further research that indicates that some environments can tip the balance strongly in the bees favour.

To tell someone that regular treating of bees is an obligation of beekeeping is a gross oversimplification and abuse of peer pressure on what is a complex issues,

In my opinion Beekeepers should make efforts to learn the facts and then make an informed decision rather than bow to group pressure of "to be a responsible beekeeper treat."

I agree with everything you say, but just wondering : If a colony is collapsing due to Varroa and DWV, despite all your management efforts, do you treat or let nature take it's course?

I appreciate we will all have different answers and it's grey area depending on many things.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Varroa tolerance can be found in some colonies, and if we build on that by selecting we can strengthen that trait, as has been done by some.

To simply not treat your bees will not necessarily achieve that and may lead to your bees suffering if you don't treat them at all. Not what I signed up for when I got bees.

If a colony needs treating, I do that, but if they have low mite levels I don't. Not all chemicals are awful, in fact most chemicals can be useful or harmful depending on how wisely or foolishly they are used.

The trick to achieving equilibrium is not to treat colonies that have mites but colonies that have VARROOSIS. That encourages the evolution of less virally-loaded mites and the mites will evolve faster than bees.

 

[MuswellMetro]

Remember your approach should not just be relying on chemicals,though a lot of you do, it is too common a view, the wonder pill, the silver bullet

it is recommended that you use an IPM (integrated Pest Management) approach ,so your arsenal includes Drone Culling, Brood breaks, queen trapping , OMF , Artificial swarms and even Hygienic bees to remove DWV infected larvae

So when will his bees recover from those harsh chemicals (your words not mine), well first work out how long a worker honey bee live this time of year

 

[pargyle]

Remember your approach should not just be relying on chemicals,though a lot of you do, it is too common a view, the wonder pill, the silver bullet

it is rcomened to use an IPM (integrated Pest Management) approach ,so your arsenal includes Drone Culling, Brood breaks, queen trapping , OMF , Artificial swarms and even Hygienic bees to remove DWV infected larvae

Quite right ... Treatment free does not mean doing nothing ... And learning how to accurately assess varroa levels is equally important ... Inspection boards will only give a partial picture and are often wildly inaccurate ... Drone cell uncapping is as important for measuring resident mites in the cells as it is for removing them. Sugar rolls and alcohol washes will give a good idea of phoretic mites ... Like I said earlier ... It's more work and requires a bit more thought but worth it ...

 

[Gilberdyke John]

There is in academic research, strong indications that beekeepers by repeated varroacide treatments are stopping Varroa and HoneyBees coming into equilibrium where the impact of the varroa and their virus are reduced to tolerable levels,

We are in the not treating camp because we do not know the safe levels of varroacide for the environment we keep bees in. Additionally we have seen further research that indicates that some environments can tip the balance strongly in the bees favour.

To tell someone that regular treating of bees is an obligation of beekeeping is a gross oversimplification and abuse of peer pressure on what is a complex issues,

In my opinion Beekeepers should make efforts to learn the facts and then make an informed decision rather than bow to group pressure of "to be a responsible beekeeper treat."

You follow your belief and I follow mine. That's part of beekeeping.

 

[Eyeman]

I have a friend who has been given some bees. They have just been treated with one of the aweful chemicals for varroa. This friend would like to go natural, and not use any chemicals. I'm worried that because these bees have already been treated, the varroa will drastically rise as a result of the weekened bees and strengthened varroa if not ever treated again. Can anyone suggest any additional steps to limit the increase in varroa from an already treated hive please?

In the real world you can:
1. Monitor mite levels and use non-chemical methods of varroa control with brood breaks & sugar dusting, drone culling etc.
2. Joe "I can't be bothered" who keeps bees next door lets them fend for themselves.
3. Joes bees abscond to your hives, your bees rob joes dying colonies and Joes drones party with your boys.
End result : It can be hard work controlling varroa on your own.
Alec

 

[pargyle]

You follow your belief and I follow mine. That's part of beekeeping.

Yes, to some extent ... but one of the problems in beekeeping are the died in the wool beekeepers who don't readily accept that there is a different way (not necessarily better but at least equally good) who say to beginners things like 'If you do this or that your bees will die' without qualifying - just selling the fear factor and not reality.

Just think how long it has taken to get some beekeepers to accept that insulation is actually good for bees (winter and summer) and that creating through draughts through the hives by propping the CB up on match sticks is not necessarily the best thing for bees when you have hives with mesh floors.

The perpetuation of some really rubbish ideas because the 'well I've always done it that way and I've never had a problem' brigade does not help beginners become open minded about 'newer' ideas.

I've been at an association meeting tonight where I was told by one member that putting insulation on my hive and not ventilating the top would lead to condensation and my bees would be nosemic in no time. Oddly enough - he's already sat through one of DerekM's lectures earlier this year and completely discounted the science when I reminded him ... his matchsticks are already in place but he says he will have to have the crown board off again soon as they've already propolised the ventilation he 'gave them'. SUCH GENEROSITY !

Some people will never change .... I just wish they would just do what THEY want and stop trying to hold back the tide ...

 

[pargyle]

In the real world you can:
1. Monitor mite levels and use non-chemical methods of varroa control with brood breaks & sugar dusting, drone culling etc.
2. Joe "I can't be bothered" who keeps bees next door lets them fend for themselves.
3. Joes bees abscond to your hives, your bees rob joes dying colonies and Joes drones party with your boys.
End result : It can be hard work controlling varroa on your own.
Alec

Yes it can .... it can be hard controlling Varroa when Joe doesn't live next door but lives two miles away !! The art of IPM is vigilance, monitoring and using the tools you have available and choose ... whatever they are. Anyone who neglects their bees ... whatever their style of beekeeping DOES make it difficult for everyone else around.

Just don't confuse 'neglect' with 'low interference' .... there is a massive difference.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

but one of the problems in beekeeping are the died in the wool beekeepers who don't readily accept that there is a different way

but the dyed in the wool beekeepers are at least treating and managing their varroa, the problem is when people start claiming they don't treat varroa and their bees don't die the emotive hand wringing type who wail

They have just been treated with one of the aweful chemicals for varroa.

then take it that they need do nothing without finding out what other 'natural' (what a ridiculous word in this context) beeker actually does to combat varroa.
Sorry Phil, but I believe that the statement 'I don't treat my bees and they haven't died' is a lot more irresponsible than someone stating if they don't treat they will die - at least the latter statement may make the touchy feely beekeeper read and think a bit and try and find an alternative IPM.

The trick to achieving equilibrium is not to treat colonies that have mites but colonies that have VARROOSIS. That encourages the evolution of less virally-loaded mites and the mites will evolve faster than bees.

Ridiculous statement really - for a start Varoosis is the technical term for infestation of varroa mite thus you are saying the trick is not to treat colonies with varroa but tinstead to treat colonies with errr - varroa

 

[midnight sun]

Hi Pargyle. I must admit that when I replied to the OP I was in a bit of a rush and a little annoyed at the possibility of leaving them to their own devises which I thought would happen reading the post. You make a several fair points, but if you consider how long they will have had these bees, the time it takes to learn some of the basics and the time of year, then I considered that to follow the course they seemed to be suggesting was of detriment to the bees which were of my first concern. In my opinion at the time I thought it would be better to treat the bees with (with chemicals that naturally exist in any case and so not too bad) than to wait till they have learned enough to develop their own 'natural' techniques which could be too late. My analogy was 'would you treat a cuddly pet riddled with lice and suffering or wait till it learned to exist with them' I believed that was the best course at the time and therefore advised accordingly.
I was not a case of 'lack of knowledge' as you suggested, but lack of patience at best I believe. We keep bees because we 'love' them so to speak, not just to steal the honey for profit, (of which there is little if any), I give mine back much of the spare honey as I believe it is more of a 'natural' feed and probably better for them (the argument of Nosema is probably best for another time). I interfere with my bees as little as possible as they know what they are doing and only interject when necessary. So I am not just 'dyed in the wool' I am open to new ideas, that is why I come on this forum, to learn and to help if I can. I am running late now and have to sign of but rest assured my advice at the time as there were no other takers at that moment was well meant and in my opinion of no risk to the Op.
Regards

 

[pargyle]

Sorry Phil, but I believe that the statement 'I don't treat my bees and they haven't died' is a lot more irresponsible than someone stating if they don't treat they will die - at least the latter statement may make the touchy feely beekeeper read and think a bit and try and find an alternative IPM.

I think if you read the rest of the post and subsequent post we are not that far away ... I'm not averse to treatment ... I'm in the 'treat when necessary' camp ... and I think my posts are more balanced than the 'don't treat and they will die' ... I haven't treated and would hope not to treat - but if my monitoring shows a marked and steady increase to the point where I feel my bees cannot cope - then that's a point where I would, obviously, consider giving them some help. I would echo Derek's point that highly insulated hives also appear to have much reduced varroa loads and this may well be part of the equation - much to think about in terms of the future of varroa management and we need people to think outside of some of the more traditional methods.

There are going to be colonies that can survive without assistance and until some of us start trying to be less quick to 'help' our bees and think a bit more about whether they actually need our help we are never going to get off the cycle of treatment that a lot of beekeepers feel is essential in the fight against the mite.

My posts always contain a warning that treatment free is not an easy path to follow and it's time consuming and at times more worrying but, for me, presently, it appears to be worthwhile.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think if you read the rest of the post and subsequent post we are not that far away

I know that, it's just most people just smugly make the 'I don't treat' statement and people read no further, go away and do nothing apart from the occasional sprinkle of magic fairy dust - at least the short sharp shock statement makes them (the ones that are capable of that is) think and look at the alternatives

 

[pargyle]

I know that, it's just most people just smugly make the 'I don't treat' statement and people read no further, go away and do nothing apart from the occasional sprinkle of magic fairy dust - at least the short sharp shock statement makes them (the ones that are capable of that is) think and look at the alternatives

Yes ... I think it's a problem generally ... people only look at the top few lines and don't get any further ... I think it's a malady brought about by the plethora of instant communications now available ! The ability to read a book, consider what is written and then make rational decisions for themselves seems to be replaced in some cases with an on line question 'is there a three word answer to my problem and can you point me towards a video to show me how to do it' ... Obviously I paraphrase but you know what I mean ...

The problem I have is the converse of yours ... I think people read 'your bees will die' and follow the path of those dyed (damn spell corrector on the iphone !) in the wool, treat regardless, beekeepers who try to keep us tramping down the same old path - successful though it may be ... there are other options.

I don't believe that all beekeepers are incapable of independent thought - but we've seen a couple on here lately that are clearly incapable of ANY thought ... for them .. they will probably kill their bees with treatment or without !!

 

[midnight sun]

Yes ... I think it's a problem generally ... people only look at the top few lines and don't get any further ... I think it's a malady brought about by the plethora of instant communications now available ! The ability to read a book, consider what is written and then make rational decisions for themselves seems to be replaced in some cases with an on line question 'is there a three word answer to my problem and can you point me towards a video to show me how to do it' ... Obviously I paraphrase but you know what I mean ...

The problem I have is the converse of yours ... I think people read 'your bees will die' and follow the path of those dyed (damn spell corrector on the iphone !) in the wool, treat regardless, beekeepers who try to keep us tramping down the same old path - successful though it may be ... there are other options.

I don't believe that all beekeepers are incapable of independent thought - but we've seen a couple on here lately that are clearly incapable of ANY thought ... for them .. they will probably kill their bees with treatment or without !!

Sorry Pargyle, had to dash earlier as I explained I had an appointment and was running late.
To continue where I left off. You say that you use IPM (as hopefully we all do as a matter of course). Would you not consider that IPM, IS, actually a form of treatment. I do not know your regime and would not question your methods if it works for you, but if you are drone culling for instance then you are interfering with what is occurring and therefore it is a form of treatment (in my opinion at least).
To say, as some do, that their bees are 'varroa resistant' is quite a claim. Ceranae bred or cross bred bees may have a naturally occurring resistance or tolerance to varroa, (by forming an 'equilibrium'), as it is claimed ,that is where varroa came from. But if you were say drone culling very regularly then you would actually be reducing the level of varroa down to a level that the bees could just more readily tolerate, wouldn't you agree. This would not be varroa resistant or tolerant and (in the way that 'natural beekeeping comes across from it's advocates sometimes) in that instance would then be a false claim of 'tolerant or resistant' bees. I agree with you, that a beekeeper should not close their mind off to new or different methods of caring for our bees, but tried and tested methods that have proved successful and not detrimental or cruel to our bees should not be classed as 'dyed in the wool' in the way you imply.
If you reread my original reply, although it was a little brusk, I hoped it would wake the OP up to the fact that it would be better to do something rather than nothing and even to use conventional 'treatments' rather than to wait until they have picked up enough knowledge to add more IPM based techniques as tool to the wellbeing of their charge. I hope you will agree that IPM techniques vary and are numerous and therefore will take time to learn. Therefore (in my opinion) I would consider the soft chemical methods advisable at the beginning to at least protect the bees till more experience is gained. Many beginners courses teach the 'chemical' treatments as they are something the students can take in at the beginning, as I'm sure you will remember your early days and how there is a lot to learn in such a short time.
I THEN go on to say that if you do not treat your bees then they will probably die. How many bees were lost to varroa before keepers were alerted to the problem and how many WILD (therefore untreated) colonies do people say still exist?
I actually say that if you LEAVE those bees to 'go natural' then..........
If you use only IPM, assuming you know the techniques then you are NOT LEAVING them to go natural. Going natural in my view would be leaving them to their own devices which could in a short time put them in the same position as our almost non existent 'wild colonies'. They have died!
I admit at the beginning that I am not an experienced keeper (15 months to be precise) but I think you will agree that I make some valid points although I am always willing to listen and learn from experience.
This is a forum for discussion at sometimes it can get heated, but disagreement and even argument, ( won't mention matchsticks.....DOH!)can hopefully push the boundaries to help us develop better beekeeping techniques for the future.
I'm sure we can ALL agree on that principal.
I just felt I had to reply to your comments and justify mine, no doubt you would. Hope I was a little clearer.
Regards