Buying some new queens

[Uncle Betty]

You used the word hyperbolic (exaggerated). That is why I replied. I have not exaggerated anything.

'Not worth hive space'', is hyperbole. Which is elsewhere defined as...

''speech that uses extreme exaggeration to make a point or show emphasis''.

The fact that many people take a different view to you, makes it so.

But I can agree to differ on that issue.

You make an assumption that I am motivated by honey output. I am not. I simply referred to it because others are. In fact, my primary goal is to breed gentle bees with a degree of varroa tolerance.

I am not making that assumption, and with great respect to you, I am aware of your motivation. I know that honey is not primary. Yet you, as you are absolutely entitled to do, refer to it. And you do so constantly, and you have more than once advertised your work with pictures of well-supered hives.

So it isn't a peripheral issue.

However, it is not their yield that makes me say they aren't worth the hive space, it is their swarminess, temper and susceptibility to chalkbrood. In my area, thats what the local bee is like.

Improving the local bee is a valid beekeeping goal in any district. It has been done, and is being done.

If you are saying that is an impossibility in your place, can you say why so ?

If it is possible, why did you chose to do otherwise ?

 

[Beefriendly]

However, it is not their yield that makes me say they aren't worth the hive space, it is their swarminess, temper and susceptibility to chalkbrood. In my area, thats what the local bee is like.

As you correctly point out it is very area specific, 20 miles from my spawn of Satan's are some of the nicest bees you could wish to work with. As gentle as my best Buckfast queens but still retain their annual swarming. And due to the localized spring cold weather and winds in that coastal region are not very productive in spring early summer. I doubt even my Queens could forage much in that area, although we are intending to find out.
This pattern of nasty vs gentle local bees seems to predominate throughout various regions of the UK and it appears to be a postcode lottery whether you are in one of the bad or nice areas.

 

[B+.]

Improving the local bee is a valid beekeeping goal in any district. It has been done, and is being done.

If you are saying that is an impossibility in your place, can you say why so ?

If it is possible, why did you chose to do otherwise ?

I hear lots of this sort of talk in my area. People tell me that they are rearing "local" bees and each year they are getting better. That's good. However, what they are neglecting to mention, or, are deliberately avoiding, is that the quality of their queens is improved by mating with improved drones from my (and people like me) colonies.
At our agm this year, I asked people who raised "local" bees to assess them according to the same criteria I use. How many do you think accepted that challenge? Not one. I came to the conclusion that they were unable/unwilling to take part in an objective test.
My motives are my own. I doubt you would understand them.

 

[Beefriendly]

That's a fair comment Poly Hive, but it is more a case of not wanting Imported Queens due to them not be adapted to the UK climate rather than specifically wanting local queens.

To paraphrase B+ this is a bit of myth, spread mainly by the anti-importers. In many (not all) cases of foreign queens the UK climate appears to far more suitable for them than the areas they originated from and hence they thrive. Easily outdoing many of the local mongrels. Of course this is a little area specific.
If you are keen to experiment try some vs local bees and see what the outcome is in your area. But choose your breeder with care, there are many stack 'em high sell 'em cheap merchants where quality control is not their paramount concern. I know, I've been there, got the T shirt. There has been mention of 2 UK breeders names, I have never heard any criticism about their bees....but be warned not all queens will be equal and be prepared to pay for good genetic crosses.

 

[B+.]

As you correctly point out it is very area specific, 20 miles from my spawn of Satan's are some of the nicest bees you could wish to work with. As gentle as my best Buckfast queens but still retain their annual swarming. And due to the localized spring cold weather and winds in that coastal region are not very productive in spring early summer. I doubt even my Queens could forage much in that area, although we are intending to find out.
This pattern of nasty vs gentle local bees seems to predominate throughout various regions of the UK and it appears to be a postcode lottery whether you are in one of the bad or nice areas.

Indeed.
Ged Marshall, who some of you will know of, lives about 20 miles from me.
He open mates daughters of Keld Brandstrups Buckfasts even though there are many other beekeepers around here. He claims that drone saturation works for him and, based on the amount of repeat business he gets, there must be something in it.
I take a similar approach with my open mated queens, but, all of my test queens are either island mated or instrumentally inseminated. When ITLD issued the challenge for people who believed they had worthwhile stock to send him some for objective testing, I did. His J5 line is a daughter of one of my test queens from 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZ0ZmN-W8M (https://twitter.com/Bplus_Amc). He seemed happy with them.

 

[Uncle Betty]

My motives are my own. I doubt you would understand them.

We discussed it by PM, 25/7/2017.

 

[Brian Bush]

I'm sure he can. It just so happens that I agree with what he said.
Most "local" bees are not worth the hive-space

 

[madasafish]

I have been out helping someone I mentor to catch a swarm: hence the delay in replying.

I apologise that I said "MOST local bees are the spawn of Satan..etc".

ALL the local bees I have encountered locally have been a waste of hive space. And many people I know who sell nucs locally sell bees that fit that description as well.

As for the rest of it, I stand by what I said. Anyone claiming - as a general statement that "local bees are best" - is guilty of hyperbole and being disingenuous.

Period.


Not going to say any more..

 

[Beefriendly]

He made a stupid, and inaccurate statement.

No Éamon, he made a statement that many of us who live in areas with similar aggressive swarmy local bees would agree was a good accurate description. You are very fortunate if you live in an area where your local bees don't have these traits.
Be good it you provided some information about your local bees traits. Colony size, chalk brood susceptibility, honey yields, swarming propensity etc.

 

[Bosleeu]

Definitely true in my area.

My bait hives get filled with swarms containing hardly five frames of stingy, runny dark bees this time of year.

I am not a fan of our "local' bees.

The difference between them and properly bred bees is like day and night.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[Uncle Betty]

No Éamon, he made a statement that many of us who live in areas with similar aggressive swarmy local bees would agree was a good accurate description. You are very fortunate if you live in an area where your local bees don't have these traits.

The man was decent enough to apologise for making the over-generalisation that I take exception to.

I apologise that I said "MOST local bees are the spawn of Satan..etc".

Try to keep up.

 

[Beefriendly]

The man was decent enough to apologise for making the over-generalisation that I take exception to.

Really!! I though it was the opposite.

I apologise that I said "MOST local bees are the spawn of Satan..etc".

[B]ALL the local bees I have encountered locally have been a waste of hive space.

[/B]
Do try and keep up.

 

[Bosleeu]

Over the years I have been beekeeping I have bought bees from most of the suppliers who advertise on the internet , bees from the UK, Germany , Cyprus and elsewhere. I am not able to quantify what differences in temperament /yield etc but so far:
I have not bought a queen whose offspring were really horrible.
All survived their first winter despite my incompetence in early years.
There were no visible signs of any queen or her offspring being incapable of adapting to our local conditions...which can be harsh in winter.

Most local bees - from local stock - are the spawn of Satan being swarmy, unproductive, stingy and generally useless. Of course you may be lucky and your local bees may be pleasant, productive and non swarmy. I read the mantras about "local bees". It is absolute bull excrement as it all depends on the local gene pool..Local bee populations are not homogenous and to present them as the answer to all problems is - in my ignorant opinion - disingenuous.. As anyone who collects swarms will know.


Of course the above is my opinion and there are many people who sincerely believe local is best - and in their case it may very well be true. But to extend that logic to the entire countrywide bee population is just unscientific.

Definitely true in my area.

My bait hives get filled with swarms containing hardly five frames of stingy, runny dark bees this time of year.

I am not a fan of our "local' bees.

The difference between them and properly bred bees is like day and night.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[Uncle Betty]

Really!!
[/B]
Do try and keep up.

There is a vast difference between 'Most local bees' (general) and 'All the local bees I have encountered locally...' (particular)

Basic rule of logic that you cannot go from the particular to the general.

If you can't grasp that distinction, then you aren't smart enough for this conversation.

So jog on, troll.

 

[Hedgerow Honey]

My recent experience last year is that most of my own breeds which are all open mated in year two have become hives from hell, some becoming unmanageable and dam right dangerous, stinging, balling and following for miles .

Last year I had enough and started re-queening everything with good known stock from Ged Marshall, this has more than proved itself this spring with over a tonne from the OSR from fourteen colony's, they are not swarmy, not aggressive and work very hard. I still had four colony's left from my own stock and last week while taking supers off again went nuts, farm workers got stung 500 yds from the hives in the farm yard, these have now been split up to have new queens introduced at the end of the week.

I was worried about horror stories about F2's being feisty so have two to try alongside the F1's, these are proving to be good to type up to now, I also had six packages from Murray to try which are on an isolated site, these are also proving their worth with the same temperate as Geds. The cost of new stock has been far outweighed by results, both in stores returned and peace of mind, especially in this world of no win no fee.

 

[Millet]

Is it that time of the month for you as you are not normally this abusive, i started out with local bees from one area and they where pure dog ****, very aggressive/very swarmy/ 6/7 frames of brood in a good season and around 15lb of honey from them in a good year, which makes me totally agree with Mad Fishmans comments about the spawn of Satan.

 

[Swarm]

Your buckfasts are swarmy.

 

[Swarm]

Best option for queens has already been given by Linoleum Bonaparte on page one.
They are stunning local bees, Winter well, very productive, no signs of chalk brood and are lovely, gentle bees.
Why would you go elsewhere?

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

My question is have "local" bees always been aggressive and unproductive? I guess that's all there was once.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Your silly hyperbole is not very scientific either.

Nevertheless, he's right.

Silly hyperbole is never right. It is just silly.

But I can see how you would find it useful.

He made a stupid, and inaccurate statement.

Well then you are equally hyperbolic, and equally silly.

And what else is new ?

It's because he has an agenda, you see.

.

It's the same old story, just mention 'Local' or that you don't want to import - they're all over it like a bad dose of thrush and bang goes another informative thread.