brood and half, where next

[DaveG23]

So I ended up with a hive on brood and a half..

A national hive that was strong coming out of winter, I had no spare brood boxes but ideally would have moved to double brood. So they got a super to give extra space about 1 month ago.

Inspected yesterday, in the brood box 7 frames of BIAS, Queen has just started laying on one side of the 8th frame. In the super, 5 frames of sealed brood, 1 frame of nectar, the rest (4) are not even mended from last years extraction.

I dont want to stay on brood and a half, especially with Manley frames in the super.

I now have spare brood boxes, lots of foundation and a fair bit of drawn comb.

Nectar has started to come in in the last 3 weeks, we dont have a spring flow as such, more of a dribble from early may, picking up in to June.

Ideally I would like to do a demaree with this hive at some point this year.

So advice please:

Should I add the 2nd brood box and put the super above a queen excluder, wait for the brood in the super to emerge and then demaree?

Or can I set up for a demaree directly now?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Demarre now would sort out all your problems.
Ignore the 'half' for a moment
Find the queen, put her on a deep frame with (ideally) open brood and laying space, put her in the bottom box with drawn comb and, if needed frames of foundation.
Queen excluder
at least one super (minimum two if you plan to use the Demarree to make increase as well).
Queen excluder/Demarree floor (neither of these is obligatory)
Deep box with all the rest of the brood
and finally the 'half' (whilst simultaneously muttering under your breath 'why on earth did I think brood and a half was a good idea' )
At the end of all this, you will have the queen on new comb in the bottom box, The possibility of QC's in the top box and once all the brood has emerged, a shallow that you can once again use for the proper purpose.
After all this, you can then sit back and plan whether the colony has enough guts for you to immediately put them on double brood or, more sensibly, you can put them on double brood next spring.

 

[Swarm]

Demarre now would sort out all your problems.
Ignore the 'half' for a moment
Find the queen, put her on a deep frame with (ideally) open brood and laying space, put her in the bottom box with drawn comb and, if needed frames of foundation.
Queen excluder
at least one super (minimum two if you plan to use the Demarree to make increase as well).
Queen excluder/Demarree floor (neither of these is obligatory)
Deep box with all the rest of the brood
and finally the 'half' (whilst simultaneously muttering under your breath 'why on earth did I think brood and a half was a good idea' )
At the end of all this, you will have the queen on new comb in the bottom box, The possibility of QC's in the top box and once all the brood has emerged, a shallow that you can once again use for the proper purpose.
After all this, you can then sit back and plan whether the colony has enough guts for you to immediately put them on double brood or, more sensibly, you can put them on double brood next spring.

The above was going to be performed by my mate on one of his on brood and a half, they also have three supers besides the half. Early stage charged cells scuppered that plan.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Demarre now would sort out all your problems.
Ignore the 'half' for a moment
Find the queen, put her on a deep frame with (ideally) open brood and laying space, put her in the bottom box with drawn comb and, if needed frames of foundation.
Queen excluder
at least one super (minimum two if you plan to use the Demarree to make increase as well).
Queen excluder/Demarree floor (neither of these is obligatory)
Deep box with all the rest of the brood
and finally the 'half' (whilst simultaneously muttering under your breath 'why on earth did I think brood and a half was a good idea' )
At the end of all this, you will have the queen on new comb in the bottom box, The possibility of QC's in the top box and once all the brood has emerged, a shallow that you can once again use for the proper purpose..

I wonder whether that would work to move a colony onto 14x12 if you had a few drawn frames already?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I wonder whether that would work to move a colony onto 14x12 if you had a few drawn frames already?

Can't see why not - I doubt the bees are particular about the size of the frame.
I'd wait until after the 'June gap' though, seen too many disastrous Demarrees when there's no flow.

 

[DaveG23]

Demarre now would sort out all your problems.
Ignore the 'half' for a moment
Find the queen, put her on a deep frame with (ideally) open brood and laying space, put her in the bottom box with drawn comb and, if needed frames of foundation.
Queen excluder
at least one super (minimum two if you plan to use the Demarree to make increase as well).
Queen excluder/Demarree floor (neither of these is obligatory)
Deep box with all the rest of the brood
and finally the 'half' (whilst simultaneously muttering under your breath 'why on earth did I think brood and a half was a good idea' )
At the end of all this, you will have the queen on new comb in the bottom box, The possibility of QC's in the top box and once all the brood has emerged, a shallow that you can once again use for the proper purpose.
After all this, you can then sit back and plan whether the colony has enough guts for you to immediately put them on double brood or, more sensibly, you can put them on double brood next spring.

Thanks, thats very clear & useful advice.

I will try to make increase from this hive, so will go with the 2 supers and knock up a demarree floor today.

I expect that I will end up letting the top brood eventually become a super for honey this year.

 

[DaveG23]

So I completed the manipulation today. That is quite a stack of boxes..

All went well, found the queen in the brood box and she is now in the lower box with a frame of open brood, 4 drawn frames, a frame with nectar and pollen, the box was then made up with foundation.

Found at least 2 queen cups with an egg in but nothing else, so I hope that I have got to them in time.

When the bees emerge from the half at the top of the stack is it best to leave that super where it is? Just thinking that as there is some nectar in there I could either swap it out with 1 of the new supers i added today between the BB's or if i leave it, it gives them some space so that they may not immediately start back filling the frames in the top brood box with nectar.

 

[DaveG23]

Just had a quick look and there are bees using the lower entrance, quite a few also using the upper entrance, also some bees just hanging around by the upper entrance.

Should I shut the upper entrance for a few days to make sure the flying bees get the message to go downstairs to the queen?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Should I shut the upper entrance for a few days to make sure the flying bees get the message to go downstairs to the queen?

Drones need to get out. Any drone brood upstairs?

 

[DaveG23]

Drones need to get out. Any drone brood upstairs?

Yes, good point they will need to get out.

I have the top entrance the same direction as the bottom entrance, is that a mistake?

Think I'll just leave them to get on with things and check in 7 days. Probably over thinking things

 

[Erichalfbee]

Direction is fine

 

[DaveG23]

Direction is fine

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes, good point they will need to get out.

I have the top entrance the same direction as the bottom entrance, is that a mistake?

No, quite the opposite, both entrances are meant to face the same way and you also want the bees to use both the entrances, you always get bees bunching around the top entrance, I suppose it's to be expected being a lot smaller.

 

[DaveG23]

Made up a nuc with a QC, 2 frames of brood and some bees shaken in from the top box.

Still lots of brood to emerge in the top box, some in the half, but nectar is starting to go in to the half.

Didn't check the lower box, thought I'd leave them to get on with things.

Thanks for the good advice, everything is working really well so far.

 

[DaveG23]

Just to update this.

Took down the top box today, left the half which is now 3/4 full of honey as the top super of 2 and now just 1 brood box.

June has been a wash out. Many cold days.

I didn't go in and move any frames of eggs/brood from the bottom to the top brood box. Main reason being I have managed to damage a disc in my back and the resulting sciatica is not much fun. So I am reliant on friends to do lifting of boxes, that and the pissing weather.

I ended up with 4 frames in the top box that had brood that didn't emerge. I assume that they were chilled, perhaps there were not enough bees when I did the demaree to ensure warmth in the top box.

But the nuc I made up is flying, so the queen obviously found enough weather gaps to get mated.

Have another 2 hives now set up this way, hopefully as they were set up later I won't loose brood to chilly weather.

 

[Swarm]

Watch your back Dave, I've just had to finish work through damage to the sciatic nerve. Not fun, take care.

 

[DaveG23]

Sorry to hear that Steve, I hope you have found a solution and some relief.