British black bee

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and the queen is of a much lighter hue - and will be getting lighter still with a thin coating of frost come next spring if they haven't calmed down
Yes. Big, fat and light ginger. Jury is still out regarding her fate, time will tell.

I used to have another colony of ginger mingers, the banana bunch (it's all you could smell from the moment you cracked the CB) they didn't make it through the Winter. I only saw their queen once, she was quite dark.
 
agree local bee best, an AMM Black bee in this area (london) would go nasty at first re queening because the genepool is so different from AMM

Not too sure that I could totally agree with that statement.

We have been looking at the wing morphometry of our local black bees and not seen any real aggression when they get crossed with the local lasses... just a lot more stripey!

However my personal experience is ( as I keep all three variants...( A m mellifera / A m ligusta / A m carnolia )when the dark Carniolian strains cross with just about anything... especially the Italian/ Buckfast/ New Zealand.... yellow bee types then there is going to be trouble...
perhaps because the Carniolian bees look so dark when compared with the yellow stripey jobs, this has lead to the myth that dark bees( Amm) get vicious if cross mated?

i can only go on the experience i have had, AMM negative disquoildal shift queens, from lydney hereford and from Cornwall (near treen),all on requeening turned very nasty and impossible when queenless awaiting a virgin to mate the next year

possible its my my local gene pool as i have the same problem with imported NZ AML but not Buckfasts even on third or fourth mating
 
you basically have a couple of choices, get hold of what ever comes your way and be greatfull of spend a lot of money chasing a specific breed or strain, i would suggest for a new beginger a carni strain or the so called buckfast strain. both will hold you well, are easier to deal with and are good to learn with.

the AMM, black bees are more hard work to deal with throught the year than rose tinted books make out.
whay you really need is a bee you can get confindence with , a bad mated queen of any form of bee, especial a dark bee and you are in serious pain levels.

Get yourself some local mongrels to start off with.... and do not get sidetracked into the belief that so called Buckfasts or Carniolian bees would be the best for you!

It is an argument that will go on forever................................not worthy
 
i can only go on the experience i have had, AMM negative disquoildal shift queens, from lydney hereford and from Cornwall (near treen),all on requeening turned very nasty and impossible when queenless awaiting a virgin to mate the next year

possible its my my local gene pool as i have the same problem with imported NZ AML but not Buckfasts even on third or fourth mating

I agree, had some local Cornish blacks and they were 'okay' until the next generation when I had awful problems.
Despite the protestations by some, well mostly one on here I would still recommend that unless the bees are free that you get as much 'hands on' with as many strains until you find the one that suits.
S
 
The last thing you want is stingy bees for your first colony you will be taking a 50 50 chance with black bees so go for a breed that is renowned for it's gentleness.
 
I was also that the British black bee was more adapted to the British weather. Is this correct or are most bees use to the British weather/climate?
 
I was also that the British black bee was more adapted to the British weather. Is this correct or are most bees use to the British weather/climate?

All bees are 'used' to the British climate but native type bees are better suited to it working in colder temperatures and in rain - unlike their continental cousins they will start work early and work until much later (bit like their human counterparts really :D)
 
I was also that the British black bee was more adapted to the British weather. Is this correct or are most bees use to the British weather/climate?

As they are all the same species, I would like to see some scientific evidence that this is so, or just another rumour put out by advocates
Some of my colonies work in cold and wet and not one is what I would call black
S

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
 
As they are all the same species, I would like to see some scientific evidence that this is so, or just another rumour put out by advocates
Some of my colonies work in cold and wet and not one is what I would call black
S

It's not specifically foraging behaviour which distinguishes AMM and AMM-hybrids from others, but laying behaviour, over-wintering colony size, frugal use of stores and so on ...

It's also a mistake to make judgements purely on appearance - if your queens have open-mated in Britain, then I'd be most surprised if there wasn't at least some genetic connection between your bees and AMM.

LJ
 
It's not specifically foraging behaviour which distinguishes AMM and AMM-hybrids from others, but laying behaviour, over-wintering colony size, frugal use of stores and so on ...

It's also a mistake to make judgements purely on appearance - if your queens have open-mated in Britain, then I'd be most surprised if there wasn't at least some genetic connection between your bees and AMM.

LJ
I agree but I doubt anyone could scientifically attribute any of the above qualities to any one strain of bee. I am even more confident that my queens are a mix of many strain, especially the II ones that have a written genetic line going back to BA. All the queens have all the above qualities and more some claim for AMM.
S
 
At the risk of going a little 'off topic', I've just found some interesting info in ROB Manley's 1945 book 'Honey Farming':

In the sections leading up to the following quotes, he tells of how he started beekeeping - by obtaining some 'druv' (driven) bees from a skeppist, of which there were quite a few still around at that time, and who were happy to give away their excess bees rather than kill them. So I think it's a fair assumption to make that those bees were AMMs.

"There had come most alarming tales from the South of a new and devastating plague. Whole apiaries had been wiped out in the Isle of Wight; the trouble had spread to the mainland, was rapidly travelling north and spreading far and wide. Towards the end of this most glorious of English summers for beekeeping, I noticed a large number of bees running about in front of their hives unable to fly, and these towards evening tended to bunch on grass and lumps of earth. Even then, being inexperienced, I did not quite realize what was coming, and like all amateurs, I looked about for someone to tell me what to do about it."

"In the autumn of 1912 I moved what few bees I had left to my new home near Abingdon and by the following June every stock but one had died out and for the time being I could hardly call myself a beekeeper any longer. But the next year I started off again. I found a swarm on my farm and hived it. Every bee was dead in a few weeks of Isle of Wight disease. I had one stock that had for some reason survived the holocaust, and from it I managed to stock several of my hives, and in 1915 I had quite a little honey to sell. The plague seemed to have been to some extent stayed: in fact it never returned with the same devastating virulence so far as my bees were concerned. It was, however, still present, and seemed likely to remain so."

HONEY FARMING, R. O. B. Manley, 1945

There are those who claim that IoW disease completely erased the native AMM stock - but as the above account shows, there were survivors even in central England, as well as - no doubt - in the far-flung outposts of Scotland and Wales.

I have heard the suggestion made, that claims of the wholesale elimination of AMM was probably a sales pitch made by queen bee importers at that time. Sounds plausible.

LJ

Hivemaker - thanks for the PM and links - appreciated.
 
Amm and ami were the most successful in north and Western Europe. However that was for mostly wild and feral population that predates modern frame beekeeping in thin wooden hives.
amm evolved to survive here in trees not thin wooden hives. Maybe amm is better in recticel hives that mimic tree thermal properties?
 
I have heard the suggestion made, that claims of the wholesale elimination of AMM was probably a sales pitch made by queen bee importers at that time. Sounds plausible.

QUOTE]

Possibly, nothing changes !! But ... a huge percentage of the native black bees were wiped out by Acarine and importing to restock became the only solution and since the 1900's importing foreign queens has remained commonplace so ... the likelihood is that there will be relatively few 'mainland' colonies of pure black bees except for the few enclaves that have remained free of imports.

My bees are small black ones but I still regard them as Fareham Mongrels as they came from a swarm ... it would be nice to think that they have some AMM in their genes but as long as they are good tempered and reasonably productive I really don't mind.
 
Possibly, nothing changes !! But ... a huge percentage of the native black bees were wiped out by Acarine and importing to restock became the only quick fix solution for the rich and famousand since the 1900's importing foreign queens has remained commonplace so ... the likelihood is that there will be relatively few 'mainland' colonies of pure black bees except for the few enclaves that have remained free of imports.
.

Fixed for accuracy ;)
 
At the risk of going a little 'off topic', I've just found some interesting info in ROB Manley's 1945 book 'Honey Farming':

There are those who claim that IoW disease completely erased the native AMM stock - but as the above account shows, there were survivors even in central England, as well as - no doubt - in the far-flung outposts of Scotland and Wales.

I have heard the suggestion made, that claims of the wholesale elimination of AMM was probably a sales pitch made by queen bee importers at that time. Sounds plausible.

.
Quite so but in his 1947 book beekeeping in Britain he more or less says they were wiped out (can't give the exact quote or confirm he said totally wiped out as I haven't got the book to and at the moment - don't you despair at the state of facilities in modrn Government offices!) Maybe by that time he was thinking of branching out into queen selling :D
But he also states that the British black bee wasn't the nasty violent bee that everyone now goes on about - just a bit more nervous and agitated on the comb.
 

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