British black bee

[pargyle]

Fixed for accuracy

So true ...

 

[Jimmy]

Manley quote:

I had one stock that had for some reason survived the holocaust, and from it I managed to stock several of my hives, and in 1915 I had quite a little honey to sell.

Did queen imports only start post-IoW disease? Or were the survivors carrying genes from earlier imports??!?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Did queen imports only start post-IoW disease? Or were the survivors carrying genes from earlier imports??!?

they've been importing queens into this country from the late 1800's (and the odd king earlier still for that matter )

 

[Little John]

amm evolved to survive here in trees not thin wooden hives.

a) several hundred years of skep beekeeping don't count ?

b) "evolved to survive here in trees" is a conclusion which cannot be supported. There is a significant difference between theories and facts.

They survived, and most no doubt survived in trees (for what other option was open to them ?) - but in order to convincingly claim that they evolved to do so, you'd need to show that they are unable to survive, or at least handicapped in some significant way, by not living in tree cavities. Whereas in practice, bees are both opportunistic and flexible in the sites they choose for nests.

LJ

 

[Little John]

Did queen imports only start post-IoW disease? Or were the survivors carrying genes from earlier imports??!?

Don't know for sure, of course, but as Manley's bees came from skeppists, rather than from those people more likely to import queens - such as the rural gentry or the local parson - I'd have thought they were AMM or at least largely so. But ultimately, it's anyone's guess.

LJ

 

[For want of a better word]

It's not specifically foraging behaviour which distinguishes AMM and AMM-hybrids from others, but laying behaviour, over-wintering colony size, frugal use of stores and so on ...

It's also a mistake to make judgements purely on appearance - if your queens have open-mated in Britain, then I'd be most surprised if there wasn't at least some genetic connection between your bees and AMM.

LJ

One of the major problems with utilising a very small gene pool such as in an isolated mating site with very few and closely related drone supplying colonies OR constant selection using Instrumental Insemination is that the progeny will lose vigour over time.
Even Brother Adam realised that there was such a thing as hybrid vigour, which is why the much lauded Buckfast Superbee that he engineered was constantly being introgressed ( by his venerable self) with imported genetic material.

It would appear (from correspondance with a leading UK molecular biologist ) that the endemic honeybee ( Apis mellifera mellifera ) is represented to 40% of the genetic make up of most UK honeybees ( ie local bees) .... a mix of A m ligusta and A m carnica making up most of the the ballance.
The Cornish variety of black bee seems to have up to 80 % + of Amm genes...
The 20% due to constant introgression from introduced and imported foreign stock ( including Buckfast? hybrids)

It's also a mistake to make judgements purely on appearance - if your queens have open-mated in Britain, then I'd be most surprised if there wasn't at least some genetic connection between your bees and AMM.
Even IF the AI /II has been exclusively retentative genetically of BA's original hybridisation ( which I personally doubt), he started out with hybridised local black bees and Itialian bees ... therefor there MUST be some ( probably 40%) of Amm genes in the mix.
What confounds me is why when as claimed mixing M lineage bees ( Amm )with L lineage bees ( Aml and Amc) the hybrid is claimed to be "vicious" BA it seems never noted this ............

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Advice to OP would be to get some local bees

 

[user 6228]

a) several hundred years of skep beekeeping don't count ?

b) "evolved to survive here in trees" is a conclusion which cannot be supported. There is a significant difference between theories and facts.

They survived, and most no doubt survived in trees (for what other option was open to them ?) - but in order to convincingly claim that they evolved to do so, you'd need to show that they are unable to survive, or at least handicapped in some significant way, by not living in tree cavities. Whereas in practice, bees are both opportunistic and flexible in the sites they choose for nests.

LJ

Suggest you read Journal of Apicultural Research and Bee World 47(4): 318–322 (2008) © IBRA 2008
DOI: 10.3896/IBRA.1.47.4.15
Are honey bees (Apis mellifera L.) native
to the British Isles?
Norman L. Carreck
in addition:
villumstads 1973 paper on insulation shows very significant advantages for bees at insulation levels that would only be available in trees.
various other papers show that bees (AMM and AMI) spread and retreated in northern Europe with the deciduous trees.

extant behaviours of bees in hives show a distinct columnar preference in the way they exploit the space, which the bee keeper often has to disrupt to get the bees to use the squat space in a hive.

 

[mbc]

various other papers show that bees (AMM and AMI) spread and retreated in northern Europe with the deciduous trees.

Absolutely nothing to do with the accompanying flora then

 

[mbc]

Amm and ami were the most successful in north and Western Europe. However that was for mostly wild and feral population that predates modern frame beekeeping in thin wooden hives.
amm evolved to survive here in trees not thin wooden hives. Maybe amm is better in recticel hives that mimic tree thermal properties?

I applaud your championing of providing warm, dry homes for our bees, but sometimes I think you gild the lily.
We all know of longstanding colonies in churches and other old buildings, there must be a dozen colonies in St Davids cathedral alone, and the bees do just fine with little or no warmth to their cold stone surroundings, only shelter from the worst of the wind and rain.

 

[user 6228]

I applaud your championing of providing warm, dry homes for our bees, but sometimes I think you gild the lily.
We all know of longstanding colonies in churches and other old buildings, there must be a dozen colonies in St Davids cathedral alone, and the bees do just fine with little or no warmth to their cold stone surroundings, only shelter from the worst of the wind and rain.

Its not gilding the lily, its resetting the norm.
I rather suggest that most of beekeeping in the UK and U.S. tries to make a virtue out of hair shirts for bees.
Bees are a tough woodland/woodland edge insect, but why test that toughness all the time, why put the bees next to the edge of the cliff of survival, surely its makes good sense to put bees closer to the pre-beek average rather than the post deforestation extreme.
With modern materials there is no longer the economic imperative that langstroth foresaw would compromise bee welfare in his invention.

There are few trees and fewer still with cavities near St Davids, a Hobson's choice example is not a valid justification for enforcing hardship

 

[mbc]

Its not gilding the lily, its resetting the norm.
I rather suggest that most of beekeeping in the UK and U.S. tries to make a virtue out of hair shirts for bees.
Bees are a tough woodland/woodland edge insect, but why test that toughness all the time, why put the bees next to the edge of the cliff of survival, surely its makes good sense to bees close to the pre-beek average rather than the post deforestation extreme.
With modern materials there is no longer the economic imperative that langstroth foresaw would compromise bee welfare in his invention.

There are few trees and fewer still with cavities near St Davids, a Hobson's choice example is not a valid justification for enforcing hardship

While bees undoubtedly prosper given an insulated hive there is also no doubt that the law of diminishing returns kicks in at some point of giving them more and more insulation and it does rather deflect from more important bee husbandry issues which have wider margins to push before the diminishing returns become a factor.

There are trees in the town of St Davids and in the surrounding countryside.

 

[user 6228]

While bees undoubtedly prosper given an insulated hive there is also no doubt that the law of diminishing returns kicks in at some point of giving them more and more insulation and it does rather deflect from more important bee husbandry issues which have wider margins to push before the diminishing returns become a factor.

There are trees in the town of St Davids and in the surrounding countryside.

Diminishing returns ? you have A factor of 4 in terms of heat loss to remedy just to get to "average tree". This impacts a lot other husbandry issues as well. importantly the susceptibility to stress related disease and the time to ripen honey...Energy is not a side issue but fundamental as it is in the rest of the Universe
we will talk of diminishing returns when the heat loss is 1/4 that of a an average tree

 

[BeeJayBee]

a) several hundred years of skep beekeeping don't count ?

Just wondering if a skep is warmer or colder than a cedar hive?

The walls of a skep are generally thicker than any timber that's used for a hive, and there is air trapped in both the reed stems and between the individual pieces of reed. In winter they were generally placed somewhere out of the weather, which would reduce heat loss by convection. At least I think so.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

In winter they were generally placed somewhere out of the weather, which would reduce heat loss by convection. At least I think so.

Like a friend of mine who has mentioned more than once in the lasf few weeks that i should put the hives in the greenhouse for the winter!

 

[mbc]

Which bee to get for a beginner?

I fancy getting the British black bee as been told its a good bee for a beginner beekeeper.
What are people views?

Indeed an excellent choice, some would say the only responsible one.

If you wanted to keep pet crayfish but there was a chance some gravid females could escape into the environment, and a certainty many males would, it would be irresponsible and illegal to keep anything but native white-clawed crayfish, why should bees be any different ?

 

[user 6228]

Just wondering if a skep is warmer or colder than a cedar hive?

The walls of a skep are generally thicker than any timber that's used for a hive, and there is air trapped in both the reed stems and between the individual pieces of reed. In winter they were generally placed somewhere out of the weather, which would reduce heat loss by convection. At least I think so.

guess whats in my living room/lab at the moment

 

[BeeJayBee]

guess whats in my living room/lab at the moment

Has to be, surely, warmer than wood?

 

[Stiffy]

Indeed an excellent choice, some would say the only responsible one.

If you wanted to keep pet crayfish but there was a chance some gravid females could escape into the environment, and a certainty many males would, it would be irresponsible and illegal to keep anything but native white-clawed crayfish, why should bees be any different ?

Hmmm, different species? One is Austropotamobius pallipes the other is Orconectes propinquus, the latter having a detrimental effect on the former.
Honey bees are from the species Apis Mellifera with differing strains not species as some seem to believe
S

 

[Swarm]

Back on topic.

Whatever type you decide to keep, maintaining that strain will require buying in queens. There are some nice dark mongrels that display some of the virtues attributed to Amm, try some of these, locally sourced ofc.

 

[For want of a better word]

guess whats in my living room/lab at the moment

Have you covered it with cow excrement?.........

perhaps not in your living room !

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