Bees on windfarms ?

[madasafish]

Lol I had 1 site not quite as close but say 15 meters from the pylon. Bees loved it, also had some top bar warriors tell me my bees in poly hives would die due to fumes given off from the poly.

As a former TBH owner, I think it is more likely the owners had been sniffing the surplus glue from the construction of their hives..

 

[Ian123]

As a former TBH owner, I think it is more likely the owners had been sniffing the surplus glue from the construction of their hives..

Is that personal experience I certainly didn’t say all top bar owners and in my younger days I had a couple. But there was a time on the old bbka site that a certain few zealots appeared and made all sorts of fantastic claims.

 

[madasafish]

Is that personal experience I certainly didn’t say all top bar owners and in my younger days I had a couple. But there was a time on the old bbka site that a certain few zealots appeared and made all sorts of fantastic claims.

But they were using LOCAL bees...

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Strange that, only yesterday Murray McGregor tweeted about one of his best apiaries, I'm with him - all this fuss is the domain of conspiracy theorists and wearers of tinfoil helmets:


View attachment 22838View attachment 22839

I read the tweet but the hives are under a pylon not a turbine.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I read the tweet but the hives are under a pylon not a turbine.

It was in response to post #13

 

[Nige.Coll]

I have bees on the hard standing area of a huge wind turbine. The access road makes it easy to get to them and the bank around the area offers some shelter.
It has had no effect on the bees at all.

 

[madasafish]

I have bees on the hard standing area of a huge wind turbine. The access road makes it easy to get to them and the bank around the area offers some shelter.
It has had no effect on the bees at all.

Don't tell me. You fitted your bees with tinfoil hats.

I'll take my coat.

 

[bobba]

This article appeared in a bee magazine which is not to be mentioned!
To quote: ........ Recently though, a rather alarming report from Germany stated that wind turbines might be responsible for the decrease in insect life. It claims that the wind turbines in Germany alone, claim the lives of 1200 tons of insects a year, ie 50kg of insects per turbine. ' This is appalling news.
It continues, ' ......... a paper published by a Dutch-Danish team of scientists ..... They were investigating why it was that when there was an increase in wind speed, the amount of electricity generated fell off sometimes to even half. Close examination of the leading edges of the rotor blades found that these were encrusted with dead insects. The edges were no longer smooth but very rough, deflecting the wind and hence reducing the power generated.'

Maybe it's similar to the reaction of pigs approaching an abattoir! - Just a thought ........

I used to make wind turbines. I currently work with insects and have sampled many wild populations. So cannot resist giving my 2p on this one.

Sampling populations is very random and can vary locally from year to year. Some almost seem to have a cyclic nature with years of low population suddenly replaced by abundance. You all must have seen loads of caterpillars or lady birds (lady bugs for our US friends) in one particular year for example.

Also insect populations peak and decline through the year, so the timing of samples can have a huge impact.

Inset populations are highly localized too, 100m from a field to a wood is a different world for them.

So any studies calming to try and compare samples from 2 years is folly. Ie in 1960 there were x bugs here, but in 2020 there are y bugs here.

To be remotely meaningful they would have to to measure repeatedly, at least weekly for years in multiple locations.

It is for these reasons it is better to focus more on diversity rather then trying to count actual numbers. If you are trying to ascertain the health of the insect population and see if it is declining over time, diversity is a far more reliable indicator.

You say 1 turbine kills 50 ton per year, 1 ton a week give or take, 6kg per hour - firstly I find that figure hard to believe. Perhaps they sampled on a few high population days and extrapolated throughout the year. If they do make 6kg of insect biomass per h, than that's a potentially valuable untapped resource.

I would argue if they are killing so many, it potentially demonstrates the population is healthy there. I suspect you would not find so many bugs in a large car park that is a baron waste land for insect life.

I would not worry about turbines killing bugs. They kill birds too, and birds eat bugs, so it all balances out.

Ps, tin foil hats don't work, it takes at least 2cm of lead to stop mind control rays.

 

[Michael ECB's]

As is normal on forums the posts gets sidelined on to other matters. It was a simple serious question asked
The question was about what was happening inside his boxes regarding the bee's temperament. It was a simple question looking for a simple answer.

In an effort to hijack this post and nudge it back to the original question - Here is my opinion...

I believe it has more to do with ground vibration than anything else.....
If I have a traktor close to hives throwing fertiliser - No issues.
Just add other implements that cause more "ground shake" and youre in trouble..
Mowers, combines etc...

I believe the wind turbines cause a shudder deep in the ground that can be felt by the bees...
That's my opinion and i'm sticking to it...

 

[ChrisS]

From an engineering perspective, I would be seriously worried if there was any any imbalance or vibration from a wind turbine. At best it would waste some wind energy, at worst it could destroy the turbine - watch some of the early videos!

 

[Murox]

As is normal on forums the posts gets sidelined on to other matters. It was a simple serious question asked .............snip................. The question was about what was happening inside his boxes regarding the bee's temperament. It was a simple question looking for a simple answer.

I have not experienced your described phenomenon. But in an effort to understand the change of temperament have you considered the relationship between frequency and vibration, harmonics and resonance, infrasound and how they affect living things?

 

[Michael ECB's]

From an engineering perspective, I would be seriously worried if there was any any imbalance or vibration from a wind turbine. At best it would waste some wind energy, at worst it could destroy the turbine - watch some of the early videos!

Point taken - I would also be concerned with shudder from imbalance or bearings etc....
However....
As a keen fisherman, I have often held a rod up when wind is blowing.... just from the resistance you can feel the the light shudder, and this is only from a small thin spinning rod... Imagine those big towers with blades trying to flex in the wind...
I rekon it's the shudder....

Or - Perhaps the tinfoil hat brigade are onto something,,,, ?
Or ,,,,. A conspiracy led by Pesticide companies against natural pollination....
What about those Seedless grape people, they're always up to no good looking down there noses at us....
Hmmmm - onto something here.

 

[beeno]

Hi Rockingod, At the top of my head, I would expect that wind farms would cause a certain amount of wind turbulence which would make it difficult for bees to navigate through.

 

[understanding_bees]

So, what I'm saying is if we're patient enough we might eventually get a post that answers the question (I'm still waiting for a definitive answer to question of the mechanism by which Oxalic Acid kills Varroa and one may turn up eventually!).

The whole subject of varroa control is of real interest to me. I wrote to Randy Oliver (Scientific Beekeeping), who gave me a very courteous reply. He knows Dr Samuel Ramsey well, and Randy's answer to me included:

The main entry (for OA) is likely through the mites' empodia, which are sticky. Mites walking over OA microcrystals quickly die.
When mixed with glycerin, OA will also penetrate a mites dorsal cuticle.
I also have suggested evidence that OA in glycerin may interfere with the mites' olfaction.

I needed to lookup "empodia" - these are the sticky pads on the varroa's feet. I also checked on "olfaction", which is the sense of smell.

 

[bobba]

Rockingod said:


Speaking to a fellow beefarmer this morning and he reckons that wind turbines are upsetting his bees. He has a small number of boxes on a local wind farm (west Wales) and he reckons that when the wind is blowing and the turbines are turning the bees become seriously agitated to the the point of not being inspectable . When the turbines are not turning they are little darlings and very calm to the point where he can inspect normally.


Anybody else have any experience of this phenomenon?

I am sorry you feel your question was disregarded.

I would assume most peoples default answer to that question would be no. If someone had experienced the same phenomenon they would be eager to tell you. So I think it can be assumed that all contributors to your thread would answer the same as me.....No.

However I suspect your friend thinks the turbines are affecting his/her bees, and is looking for confirmation to confirm their beliefs.

I think you mentioned hum as one possible factor and electromagnetic radiation would be the other obvious suspect.

I don't think the hum will be a problem, I have seen hives near roads, on building roofs by air conditioners, or near loud rivers. So I don't think they are bothered by a bit of background noise.

Regarding the electromagnetic radiation, I do not think its affecting the hives.

But I kind of get the impression (sorry if I am wrong) that you friend will not change their suspicions that the turbines are affecting their bees, even if 100 people said the same as me.

So here is what I suggest....

Tell your friend to wrap one hive in sound insulation. Wrap one hive in tin foil and earth it (a faraday cage). And wrap one hive in 2cm+ of lead.

Then by observing the hives they will know if sound, electromagnetic radiation or mind control rays are causing a problem.

(sorry could non resist the lead and rays pun)

But seriously, if the faraday cage works then your friend would have made a potential important scientific discovery. I would be happy to write a paper on your friends behalf.

The obvious answer to the phenomenon is that is that turbines are located in windy places. So reading between the lines, "My friend has hives in a windy place, and when its windy the bees are agitated. Do you think its the turbines?".

So with an opening question that can be interpreted quite humorously, I am surprised your original thread still had some genuine discussion and did not descend into complete silliness.

Either way, I hope your friend can now confirm or dismiss their suspicions.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Maybe it's the noise and vibrations coming from the motors that make the turbines go round that's the problem

 

[Apple]

Rockingod said:


Speaking to a fellow beefarmer this morning and he reckons that wind turbines are upsetting his bees. He has a small number of boxes on a local wind farm (west Wales) and he reckons that when the wind is blowing and the turbines are turning the bees become seriously agitated to the the point of not being inspectable . When the turbines are not turning they are little darlings and very calm to the point where he can inspect normally.


Anybody else have any experience of this phenomenon?

I am sorry you feel your question was disregarded.

I would assume most peoples default answer to that question would be no. If someone had experienced the same phenomenon they would be eager to tell you. So I think it can be assumed that all contributors to your thread would answer the same as me.....No.

However I suspect your friend thinks the turbines are affecting his/her bees, and is looking for confirmation to confirm their beliefs.

I think you mentioned hum as one possible factor and electromagnetic radiation would be the other obvious suspect.

I don't think the hum will be a problem, I have seen hives near roads, on building roofs by air conditioners, or near loud rivers. So I don't think they are bothered by a bit of background noise.

Regarding the electromagnetic radiation, I do not think its affecting the hives.

But I kind of get the impression (sorry if I am wrong) that you friend will not change their suspicions that the turbines are affecting their bees, even if 100 people said the same as me.

So here is what I suggest....

Tell your friend to wrap one hive in sound insulation. Wrap one hive in tin foil and earth it (a faraday cage). And wrap one hive in 2cm+ of lead.

Then by observing the hives they will know if sound, electromagnetic radiation or mind control rays are causing a problem.

(sorry could non resist the lead and rays pun)

But seriously, if the faraday cage works then your friend would have made a potential important scientific discovery. I would be happy to write a paper on your friends behalf.

The obvious answer to the phenomenon is that is that turbines are located in windy places. So reading between the lines, "My friend has hives in a windy place, and when its windy the bees are agitated. Do you think its the turbines?".

So with an opening question that can be interpreted quite humorously, I am surprised your original thread still had some genuine discussion and did not descend into complete silliness.

Either way, I hope your friend can now confirm or dismiss their suspicions.

Silly...
I know of one beekeeper in S W Wales who "earths" the metal queen excluders.

Chons da

 

[ChrisS]

Point taken - I would also be concerned with shudder from imbalance or bearings etc....
However....
As a keen fisherman, I have often held a rod up when wind is blowing.... just from the resistance you can feel the the light shudder, and this is only from a small thin spinning rod... Imagine those big towers with blades trying to flex in the wind...
I rekon it's the shudder....

That's a different phenomenon. The shudder from a fishing rod is vortex shedding, the same effect that makes flags flap and yacht rigging slap against the mast. Vortex shedding - Wikipedia

A wind turbine mast is very carefully designed to prevent resonance (aka shudder) from vortex shedding. And turbine blades are shaped to ensure laminar airflow and extract the maximum wind energy without any downstream turbulence. That's why big wind farm arrays are so efficient.

If you're still interested, wikipedia has loads of stuff on wind turbines and their design. As far as I'm concerned, wind turbines upset bee colonies about as much as 5G masts cause Covid.

 

[seillean mil]

As far as I'm concerned, wind turbines upset bee colonies about as much as 5G masts cause Covid.

It's quite a serious issue then?

 

[Michael ECB's]

That's a different phenomenon. The shudder from a fishing rod is vortex shedding, the same effect that makes flags flap and yacht rigging slap against the mast. Vortex shedding - Wikipedia

Thank you for info and link..... very interesting... Always learning...