Are our bees 'enslaved'

[pargyle]

Ah, here we are, late-nighters. Feel free not to create or participate in a furore, I consented to an interview, and my "quotes" have been absolutely correctly represented, the article was written by a beekeeper, and very well indeed, and I hope you will, if you see it, find some things in it with which you can agree. Needless to say that the "bee whisperer" bit was NOT one of my quotes. - Rather than take it as a provocation of furore, it could be taken as a challenge to exercise tolerance. I consider myself a good beekeeper, albeit on a never-ending learning curce and recommend my approach, needless to say. Is that provocative? Are crystals provocative? Or are we all here to learn from one another?

Not to me Heidi ... but there are a few who will delight in making mischief ... To me, anyone who keeps bees is doing something for the world (well most of them are !) - how they do it is a matter of personal preference, I don't crusade ..

 

[Skyhook]

Drumgerry- yes, that was one of the more considered parts of the discussion- I will come back to you on that when I'm not supposed to be working .

And Heidi, you were the oil of troubled waters- I don't agree with all your opinions, but after the rants from Sir Quej and one or two others, your calm and considered post was a refreshing change.

 

[drfraz]

Here is a nice example of the oil on troubled water effect

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=00PPPt7EJqo

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

how would people who eat meat like to be referred to as animal eaters.

A valid point Heidi - I don't mind because I know where my meat comes from (I don't believe like a lot of people that steak comes in little cling filmed polystyrene packets that Tesco's pick off trees)
I eat cows, sheep pigs, chickens certain wild birds the odd rabbit or bambi and fish sometimes
I believe that we all have a responsibility for the well being of the animals we eat for the time before they arrive on our plate.
I like beans of all types too (but am concerned about the massive forestry clearances to make room for monoculture soya production amongst other things)
As I said in a previous post I do admire people's strength of conviction for 'going all the way' down the vegan route even though I think they are wrong, i believe they are the only ones who have a solid base for argument (not abuse).
But I don't like the extremist who do pour emotive insults on us animal eaters and anthromorphize by calling us 'murderers' and all that nonsense.

 

[Skyhook]

Beekeepers have become dependent on the use of synthetic pesticides and antibiotics to combat pests

Substitute the word "vegans" for the word "beekeepers". The absolute stupidity with which vegans view the world astonishes me. How do they feed themselves? Soya? Grains? Grown in vast monocultures. How are the said soya and grain plants maintained as a weed-free monoculture? The wholesale use of pesticides. How many insects and animals were destroyed to establish these huge fields? How many won't ever get the chance to live because of the destruction of habitat? Etc etc.

I dont think one can describe vegans as stupid any more than meat-eaters, accountants or stamp-collectors. Any large random group is likely to contain some stupid people, but there is nothing inherently stupid about veganism.

Soya and grains are grown in vast monocultures, yes. You may be lucky enough to buy meat raised in flowery meadows, but the vast majority these days is raised on either weed-free monocultures of grazing rye, or indoors fed on mixed feeds based in no small part on grains and soya.


Large amounts of these crops are used to produce animal feeds. This can be eaten by humans, or it can be fed to animals. 1kg fed to chickens may produce 300g of meat. 1 kg fed to cows may produce 100g of beef. These figures are of course rough averages dependant on a number of factors; but are realistic.

Therefore the less meat eaten, the less land is needed to produce these crops and therefore the less environmental impact from their production

 

[user 6228]

I dont think one can describe vegans as stupid any more than meat-eaters, accountants or stamp-collectors. Any large random group is likely to contain some stupid people, but there is nothing inherently stupid about veganism.

Soya and grains are grown in vast monocultures, yes. You may be lucky enough to buy meat raised in flowery meadows, but the vast majority these days is raised on either weed-free monocultures of grazing rye, or indoors fed on mixed feeds based in no small part on grains and soya.


Large amounts of these crops are used to produce animal feeds. This can be eaten by humans, or it can be fed to animals. 1kg fed to chickens may produce 300g of meat. 1 kg fed to cows may produce 100g of beef. These figures are of course rough averages dependant on a number of factors; but are realistic.

Therefore the less meat eaten, the less land is needed to produce these crops and therefore the less environmental impact from their production

I think you can make a valid argument for eating less meat,
but that argument does not imply that eating zero meat is even better still

 

[sunhivebee]

A valid point Heidi - I don't mind because I know where my meat comes from (I don't believe like a lot of people that steak comes in little cling filmed polystyrene packets that Tesco's pick off trees)
I eat cows, sheep pigs, chickens certain wild birds the odd rabbit or bambi and fish sometimes
I believe that we all have a responsibility for the well being of the animals we eat for the time before they arrive on our plate.
I like beans of all types too (but am concerned about the massive forestry clearances to make room for monoculture soya production amongst other things)
As I said in a previous post I do admire people's strength of conviction for 'going all the way' down the vegan route even though I think they are wrong, i believe they are the only ones who have a solid base for argument (not abuse).
But I don't like the extremist who do pour emotive insults on us animal eaters and anthromorphize by calling us 'murderers' and all that nonsense.

Thanks, you make important points, I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Vegan and vegetarian are funny labels, how would people who eat meat like to be referred to as animal eaters.

Vegan and vegetarian are self-describing. These descriptive words were chosen by those who decided not to eat meat or animal products, and are not given by others.

"Animal eaters" is an emotive label. People who do not choose to restrict their diet are omnivores.

 

[Skyhook]

But I don't like the extremist who do pour emotive insults on us animal eaters and anthromorphize by calling us 'murderers' and all that nonsense.

I don't like extremists of any belief, and I don't think any argument is helped by abuse; but how confident are you that they are talking nonsense?

In our society we start from an interesting place. Physically, we have evolved as omnivores. Along the way however, we have also evolved some interesting little traits such as empathy and the ability to reason, so that we can now understand that other animals are sentient beings similar or dissimilar to ourselves on a sliding scale- from, for example, eelworms which (as far as we can tell) purely react to stimuli, to insects such as bees which seem to show a decision-making process evolving from basic reaction to stimuli, to elephants or orang-utans whose mental and emotional processes seem very similar to our own.

Try a thought experiment. Imagine you pop into existence with a fully formed adult intelligence, but no notion of cultural norms. When you got hungry, if you tried eating a fellow human it would quickly and forcibly be made clear to you that that was unacceptable.

Given how similar animal behaviour can be to that of humans, and how, in many ways, they are obviously akin to us: how confident would you then be that it was not wrong to kill an animal for food?

.

 

[Skyhook]

I think you can make a valid argument for eating less meat,
but that argument does not imply that eating zero meat is even better still

How would you calculate an optimum? It is now easy to eat healthily without meat (Thanks Linda, et al). Fnd from an environmental point of view, vegetarianism requires less land devoted to food production, and cows are a big producer of greenhouse gas.

What are the factors to balance against this?

 

[BeeJayBee]

Given how similar animal behaviour can be to that of humans, and how, in many ways, they are obviously akin to us: how confident would you then be that it was not wrong to kill an animal for food?

I remember a lot of people being horrified when the first films of chimps hunting and killing were shown. http://www.janegoodall.org/chimpanzees/tool-use-hunting-other-discoveries

 

[drumgerry]

Soya and grains are grown in vast monocultures, yes. You may be lucky enough to buy meat raised in flowery meadows, but the vast majority these days is raised on either weed-free monocultures of grazing rye, or indoors fed on mixed feeds based in no small part on grains and soya.

Now who's indulging in petty sideswipes? I thought you wanted considered discussion. "Flowery meadows"?

I choose to eat meat which is raised in a responsible and humane way. You seem to be undisturbed by the monoculture issue. I am. I think there is a wilful ignoring of this issue on the part of some vegans/vegetarians. I accept that vegetarianism is a wide church. I think veganism is a ridiculous way to view the world thought up I suspect largely by an urban elite who have no connection to the land. Sorry if that offends but it's my opinion.

 

[Skyhook]

Now who's indulging in petty sideswipes? I thought you wanted considered discussion. "Flowery meadows"?

I choose to eat meat which is raised in a responsible and humane way. You seem to be undisturbed by the monoculture issue. I am. I think there is a wilful ignoring of this issue on the part of some vegans/vegetarians. I accept that vegetarianism is a wide church. I think veganism is a ridiculous way to view the world thought up I suspect largely by an urban elite who have no connection to the land. Sorry if that offends but it's my opinion.

I'm sorry if 'flowery meadows' came across as a sideswipe, it wasn't meant to be- I was using it as shorthand for an ecologically diverse environment, which sadly is becoming rarer these days. Modern pasture is as much of a 'green desert' as the golf courses that are springing up everywhere.

You might want to re-read my post, as you seem to have missed the main point. I am not undisturbed by monoculture farming, but you are mistaken in linking it with vegetarianism. If meat is eaten more arable production is neded, not less, and most of this will, sadly, be grown in large monoculture systems: so by eating meat you are putting over more of the countryside to this, not less.

.

 

[Skyhook]

I remember a lot of people being horrified when the first films of chimps hunting and killing were shown. http://www.janegoodall.org/chimpanzees/tool-use-hunting-other-discoveries

Yes, we are more like the other animals than many people would like to think. The only difference is that we have the ability to consider the moral implications of our behaviour- if we choose to.

.

 

[madasafish]

Yes, we are more like the other animals than many people would like to think. The only difference is that we have the ability to consider the moral implications of our behaviour- if we choose to.

.

Morals change from decade to decade...see J Saville.

 

[drumgerry]

You might want to re-read my post, as you seem to have missed the main point. I am not undisturbed by monoculture farming, but you are mistaken in linking it with vegetarianism. If meat is eaten more arable production is neded, not less, and most of this will, sadly, be grown in large monoculture systems: so by eating meat you are putting over more of the countryside to this, not less..

Thanks for the not at all patronising suggestion that I re-read your post. I read it fine the first time.

I live in rural Speyside ( I breed alpacas for a living) and the green desert pasture you describe just doesn't exist here. Most farmers here grow barley or oats and keep cattle and sheep. It might be different in Dorset but our environment here is not degraded by farming animals for meat.

I disagree that more arable production is the logical by-product of eating meat. Maybe if we're talking cattle being raised in sheds and fed on grain but that's as much an iniquitous system as the vast fields of soybeans. But that's not the sort of farming that goes on around here. Farming animals for meat need not (and in my opinion should not) be carried out in a destructive manner but I don't see how producing enough vegetable matter to sustain a world full of vegans and vegetarians can be done in any other way.

And what would vegans have the Sami people do? Or the Inuit (ok they don't keep livestock but their culture has hunting as a central element)? Or the Masai? Or the countless others who keep livestock and depend on them for their survival? Like I said it's a western urban vanity.

 

[Skyhook]

Thanks for the not at all patronising suggestion that I re-read your post. I read it fine the first time.

I live in rural Speyside ( I breed alpacas for a living) and the green desert pasture you describe just doesn't exist here. Most farmers here grow barley or oats and keep cattle and sheep. It might be different in Dorset but our environment here is not degraded by farming animals for meat.

I disagree that more arable production is the logical by-product of eating meat. Maybe if we're talking cattle being raised in sheds and fed on grain but that's as much an iniquitous system as the vast fields of soybeans. But that's not the sort of farming that goes on around here. Farming animals for meat need not (and in my opinion should not) be carried out in a destructive manner but I don't see how producing enough vegetable matter to sustain a world full of vegans and vegetarians can be done in any other way.

And what would vegans have the Sami people do? Or the Inuit (ok they don't keep livestock but their culture has hunting as a central element)? Or the Masai? Or the countless others who keep livestock and depend on them for their survival? Like I said it's a western urban vanity.

My god you're touchy!

Rural speyside looks beautiful, but it isn't typical of how most food production happens. Globally we ARE talking about animals raised in sheds and fed on grain, and I don't like it but that's how it is. You still aren't facing the fact that most of the vast fields of soybeans ARE for animal fodder, and if people eat the beans and not the animals they are fed on, less would be needed, not more. Even in Speyside I assume the farmers feed concentrates in the winter- what do you suppose is in those sacks?

The idea that vegetarianism is a western indulgence is completely wrong. If you want good vegetarian food try southern India. If you want a high meat diet, try Germany or America. Meat is mostly a western luxury, while those less affluent live on the grains and pulses you despise so much.

The exception is where conditions are not suitable for growing crops, such as goat meat in northern africa or seals in the arctic circle.

We now live in a world with a population of over 7,000,000,000 and rising fast. Most of those people live in cities. It's not an image I like, but it is the truth. Local poulations feeding themselves by producing a range of foodstuffs is a nice idea, but in truth food production is mostly about commodities traded globally, and the reason most of it happens in huge monocultures has absolutely nothing to do with veganism, it's capitalism.

.

 

[Skyhook]

Morals change from decade to decade...see J Saville.

Of course. You don't have to go far back to find bull baiting, slavery and paedophilia perfectly acceptable. This is why I think we should be as good as we can be, and not give in to our base instincts, because it would be very easy to slip back

ps. the first time I read your post, I thought J. Saville must be an author on moral philosphy- how wrong can you be!

 

[Hivemaker.]

Most of those people live in cities. It's not an image I like, but it is the truth.
.

I hope they stay there.

 

[Skyhook]

I hope they stay there.