Anyone tried or have comments on this..........

[pargyle]

The main problem I see with your idea is that although swarms normally initially settle a short distance from their hive, as I understand it they then send out scouts further afield to look for a permenant home. You MAY therefore capture some of your swarms but unless you are going to be checking several times a day the emanating swarms are likely to disappear to other homes. I appreciate you say that there are no better homes around but bees in my opinion are contrary in their habits.
Good luck with your venture, let us know how it goes good or bad!

Do try to keep up ... you've gone and opened the box up again ....

 

[Newbeeneil]

Do try to keep up ... you've gone and opened the box up again ....

And there I was thinking I wasn't being controversial

 

[HughMann]

The main problem I see with your idea is that although swarms normally initially settle a short distance from their hive, as I understand it they then send out scouts further afield to look for a permenant home. You MAY therefore capture some of your swarms but unless you are going to be checking several times a day the emanating swarms are likely to disappear to other homes. I appreciate you say that there are no better homes around but bees in my opinion are contrary in their habits.
Good luck with your venture, let us know how it goes good or bad!

Thanks. Very true, necessary and kind (love the sig). I am lucky that the land owner is also a dog owner and is planning on walking the traps route twice a day. But I now know I won't catch them all.

 

[pargyle]

Thanks. Very true, necessary and kind (love the sig). I am lucky that the land owner is also a dog owner and is planning on walking the traps route twice a day. But I now know I won't catch them all.

Anyone who has kept bees knows that they watch for the minute that you leave them to make a cup of tea and then swarm before you get back ... only to see them disappearing in a black cloud over the horizon ... I understand they are training dogs to sniff hives and tell the beekeeper when their bees are about to swarm so you might get lucky ....

 

[HughMann]

Anyone who has kept bees knows that they watch for the minute that you leave them to make a cup of tea and then swarm before you get back ... only to see them disappearing in a black cloud over the horizon ... I understand they are training dogs to sniff hives and tell the beekeeper when their bees are about to swarm so you might get lucky ....

ROFL
Exactly the same thing happened to the swarm in my lower field/garden. I was lookimng at them from time to time (having failed to get them into a box (they were high up in a tree). Went back with all the right gear only to hear them leaving over my head - fortunately right into the hive I was planning to put them in anyway - but arriving as they were leaving was a terrible feeling at the time

 

[seillean mil]

It seems that a lot of beekeepers would place the ability to prevent swarming very high on the list of priorities. Conversely, to be inept in that regard, or even worse, to encourage or wish for swarming to happen, places a beekeeper in very low regard and seems to bestow upon other beekeepers, the confidence to be condescending or even insulting towards them.

In his proposed modus operandum, @HughMann clearly described the efforts he would be going to to capture any swarms his bees produced. Despite doing this, if a few of his swarms get missed and develop into feral colonies, he is contributing to the diversity of "wild" bees. Most of what I have read on the subject of swarms indicates the contradiction that traditional beekeepers are very keen to acquire such bees; there was a thread which veered onto that subject just the other day. I don't think that an idea like this, which, as he says, is not entirely new, deserves for him to receive such negativity.

 

[pargyle]

Beekeeper ... someone who KEEPS bees ... not someone who lets them go.

1. Why would you when it is relatively easy to do an A/S in an LDH ?
2. Creating swarms is pretty anti-social in so many ways ?
3. Why keep bees if you just want to lose swarms .?

If you start at the beginning of the thread you will see that the plan is to capture feral bees, put them in a Long hive and then let them swarm.

Might as well miss out the middle man and just let the original swarm find their 'natural' home - it has the same effect. However, if you are going to keep bees ... you should really keep bees.

 

[BugsInABox]

It seems that a lot of beekeepers would place the ability to prevent swarming very high on the list of priorities. Conversely, to be inept in that regard, or even worse, to encourage or wish for swarming to happen, places a beekeeper in very low regard and seems to bestow upon other beekeepers, the confidence to be condescending or even insulting towards them.

In his proposed modus operandum, @HughMann clearly described the efforts he would be going to to capture any swarms his bees produced. Despite doing this, if a few of his swarms get missed and develop into feral colonies, he is contributing to the diversity of "wild" bees. Most of what I have read on the subject of swarms indicates the contradiction that traditional beekeepers are very keen to acquire such bees; there was a thread which veered onto that subject just the other day. I don't think that an idea like this, which, as he says, is not entirely new, deserves for him to receive such negativity.

I don't know, is there some blind optimism in your plans HughMann. Can you really be confident there aren't half a dozen half decent natural hive sites about? Can you really be confident that there are no other colonies about that might be negatively impacted? Do you definitely know enough from your researches to be sure your plans are more good than bad?
There's a lot of people on here know a lot of stuff (I'm not one of them) but if there is a view HughMann's strivings towards his worthy goal of naturalising some bees won't work, maybe advice to forget them and plant some lime trees would be reasonable.
Regards
BIAB

 

[Katherine]

Exactly, thanks. I would not be having ALL the long hive as one mega collony (well maybe if they wanted it), its a resource hive, divider boards placed wherever the sections require it.

Have you worked out how you are going to quarantine these swarms for a few weeks to establish they are free from diseases etc.??

Ah quarantine. Can you explain exactly what that entails. Theres a comment in the BBKA guide to bee keeping which says, "rememer to quarantine your new swarm", but there is no further explanation of how to do this.

 

[Murox]

Ah quarantine. Can you explain exactly what that entails. Theres a comment in the BBKA guide to bee keeping which says, "rememer to quarantine your new swarm", but there is no further explanation of how to do this.

Basically a separate location/apiary where you can keep them isolated from other bees, so a remote place 3 miles or so from your own & other peoples bees. Observe and note how they develop checking/treating for EFB and AFB, varroa etc etc.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Ah quarantine. Can you explain exactly what that entails. Theres a comment in the BBKA guide to bee keeping which says, "rememer to quarantine your new swarm", but there is no further explanation of how to do this.

As Murox but if Hugh is catching his own bees it's not necessary

 

[seillean mil]

Where live would be considered remote in comparison with the location of the majority of the UK population, but I would struggle to find a place to put bees which did not overlap with another beekeeper's territory. In fact, I think the most surprising thing about the plan that @HughMann has described is that he has found somewhere where his bees can be so central within private land.

Obviously, best practise would be to isolate captured swarms, as described, but in reality I assume most people simply exercise caution in handling them and avoid physical cross-contamination of tools, equipment and protective clothing for a quarantine period?

 

[Murox]

Where live would be considered remote in comparison with the location of the majority of the UK population, but I would struggle to find a place to put bees which did not overlap with another beekeeper's territory. In fact, I think the most surprising thing about the plan that @HughMann has described is that he has found somewhere where his bees can be so central within private land.

Obviously, best priactise would be to isolate captured swarms, as described, but in reality I assume most people simply exercise caution in handling them and avoid physical cross-contamination of tools, equipment and protective clothing for a quarantine period?

Then there is no quarantine then. Isolation from others is quarantine and separate equipment/ppe a necessary add-on.

 

[HughMann]

There seems to be at least 3 ways to learn:

1. Trial and error
2. Seek out peer advice
3. Scientific study.

• Despite what you may think, I am trying to avoid trial and error as much as is feasibly possible. My order of preference is 3, 2 1

As has been mentioned before - these are not MY ideas. They are NOT original (in fact some are very old). They may be outside some peoples comfort zone (I won't take a guess on why that may be). If you are not comfortable with it, ignore it, don't stress.

I would be doing a disservice to the methods discussed if I let it be thought that they were invented by some random newbie guy who is making it up as some weird experiment. Experiments have already been done. Papers have been written. Treatment free bees survive in the wild and from caught swarms.

The theory that seems to make perfect sense to me, but more importantly has scientific backing, is (and I am seriously paraphrasing), that some practices are seriously messing up the natural selection process that could (and should) deal with varroa etc.

Now you could say I have totally misunderstood the people I have learnt from, you could say you disagree with them or you could say, hmmmm maybe. But if you are going to disagree, give a reason, if you think I have misunderstood, give an explanation. I have yet to formalize everything I am going to do (hense the orriginal question that started this discussion). I have not gone into all the details about my remote locale etc. Why I have had to look at alternative methods in the first place. The courses I have done and the people I have worked with. Why would I? I just asked a simple question. So please don't jump to any conclusions.

If you can't be bothered to discuss, don't comment eh? It's not good for you to get all hot and bothered. If you just want to ask me questions about how it works, the links to my mentor are below. I can't answer all your questions, I am barely started! (Watch this space for a book in 25 years at best). Personally I would just like to spend this time turning lumber into equipment.

So I link to the guy who is my mentor:

Dr Leo Sharashkin https://www.horizontalhive.com/email-website-sharashkin/dr-leonid-sharashkin.shtml
What he says about varroa and swarm catching
17.30min


And 8min here:


Tom Seeley - 29.10min
Wild bees better at dealing with verroa? - Tom Seeley 29.50min (actually mentioned and linked to on this forum before)

 

[HughMann]

Where live would be considered remote in comparison with the location of the majority of the UK population, but I would struggle to find a place to put bees which did not overlap with another beekeeper's territory. In fact, I think the most surprising thing about the plan that @HughMann has described is that he has found somewhere where his bees can be so central within private land.

Hence it has taken years to get the right spot: In the lowest density populated area outside of Scotland.
https://tinyurl.com/y33lko6b

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hence it has taken years to get the right spot: In the lowest density populated area outside of Scotland.
https://tinyurl.com/y33lko6b

Do please write a blog here on the forum when you start
Forum members are obviously quite polarised on this subject.
Some say do it, some say don't.
There aren't that many treatment free beekeepers here to provide your peer review so I guess you'll have to go with number 3.
I'm going to move this thread to the main section. It's not really a beginner's subject

 

[Boston Bees]

So I link to the guy who is my mentor:

We wish you the best of luck.

I think people are just wishing you saved your evangelism on Dr Leo (or indeed, any of the other YouTube bee gurus) until you had actually tried his methods for a few years and learned how they work in practice, in your area, with your bees. So, as Erichalfbee suggests, perhaps an update after your first couple of winters are done and dusted, with an update on survival rates etc?

I speak as someone who has gone through more than one cycle of the classic modern beekeeping life:

Step 1: Watch YouTube channel or read new book on beekeeping
Step 2: Go "Wow, this is the perfect way to keep bees, finally!"
Step 3: Spend large on kit
Step 4: Try for one winter
Step 5: Go "Hmmm"
Step 6: Try for second winter
Step 7: "FFS, they are all dead"
Step 8: Return to Step 1 and repeat

 

[seillean mil]

I like the way @HughMann provides supporting information to show why he thinks that his proposed approach to beekeeping will work. In my experience, since no-one here appears to have tried that integrated approach, all that can be offered is to say that the conventional ways do work and that these other techniques might not work. But we can't say that Hugh is condemned to failure as we don't have the evidence from experience.

It seems that the commonly accepted way to learn how to be a beekeeper is in a different order from his priorities and that his "No. 2, Seek out peer advice" would normally be most people's No. 1. As an example, given that we don't 100% understand how all treatments against varroa actually work, even Science can fail us at times. So I don't even think it's wrong that Hugh places "trial and error" as one of his ways to learn. No-one is going to stretch the boundaries of the practise of beekeeping unless some people decide to try new approaches. I am very keen to see how this project progresses and would also be pleased to see a"Blog" if Hugh has the time and inclination to do so.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So I link to the guy who is my mentor:

Dr Leo Sharashkin https://www.horizontalhive.com/email-website-sharashkin/dr-leonid-sharashkin.shtml

Not actually your mentor then?
A mentor is a person or friend who guides a less experienced person by building trust and modeling positive behaviors. An effective mentor understands that his or her role is to be dependable, engaged, authentic, and tuned into the needs of the mentee.

(mentɔːʳ )
Word forms: plural, 3rd person singular present tense mentors , present participle mentoring , past tense, past participle mentored
1. COUNTABLE NOUN [usually poss NOUN]
A person's mentor is someone who gives them help and advice over a period of time, especially help and advice related to their job.
Synonyms: guide, teacher, coach, adviser More Synonyms of mentor
2. VERB
To mentor someone means to give them help and advice over a period of time, especially help and advice related to their job.
He had mentored scores of younger doctors. [VERB noun]

Just a random yootoob hit.

 

[pargyle]

As one of the few (at least one of the few who is prepared to stick his head above the parapet !) treatment free beekeepers on here I have no objection to anyone wishing to follow a treatment free regime - my issue with Hugh's plan is the element of swarming - I still think it is unnecessary and counter productive if the desire is to find strains of bees that are resistant to varroa. Better to keep those bees and grow the stock in a managed but low interference way - measure the success by perfoming sugar rolls on the survivor colonies. Although, in an area that is as remote as he describes, I'm not sure whether this is just an esoteric exercise ... if the area is only populated by feral bees it will be unlikely that any firm conclusions can be drawn. Better, like me, keep bees in an area that has a recognised varroa problem and see how the 'experiment' develops.

I've been treatment free since day 1 of my beekeeping and I haven't lost any significant numbers of colonies over the years and within those few losses I have not been able to identify any that have been the result of varroa or the diseases vectored by the parasite.

My regime has been well documented on here .. Nothing goes into the hive unless the bees bring it in .. they build their own comb without foundation, they are fed, if they need it, with syrup (invertbee) going into winter but they are left with as much of their own honey in the brood box as they choose to store there. They live in highly insulated hives and my inspections are limited to looking for signs of swarming during the critical months of the swarm season and for disease. I sugar roll to check for varroa although, these days, having proved to my satisfaction that signs of infestation can often be a spike and a return to low levels follows, I check less than I used to. Having seen really heavily infested hives, the infestation is usually accompanied by other signs in the colony and from my experience, by that point, it is probably too late. Indeed, those colonies (despite best efforts to treat them) are often those colonies that will fail - or will become infested again - treatment and re-treatment may keep them going but I wonder whether nature should be allowed to take its course. There appears to be a susceptibility to varroa, in some colonies, in some localities. in some circumstances, although the actual reason for their susceptibility is not altogether clear. Whilst ever these bees are treated we are not going to know whether a change in regime could have a beneficial effect on the varroa population in the colony - yes, there is a risk and I recognise that bees are a valuable asset (not a commodity as Hugh would suggest) but ... Darwinian theory suggests that all species evolve in the face of change.

I don't think that feral colonies are any different to untreated managed colonies - some survive some don't, but it's almost impossible to determine why a feral colony survives or doesn't - indeed, the re-use of bee-favoured sites that have been vacated is very common and this may lead to a misconception that there are survivor colonies around when the reality it is re-colonisation by a new colony.

I wish I had been fortunate to have a mentor when I started out that shared my principles .. I found only resistance from other beekeepers and if I was told once that my bees would die I was told a hundred times - occasionally (less frequently now) I am told my bees are 'varroa bombs' and I am a threat to 'responsible beekeepers'. I have always checked for varroa and if I thought a colony was infested to the point where they were beyond the point they could manage the load I would have taken appropriate action. I had very few people to follow (a few on here were a guiding light - often by PM only - and I received some small encouragement at times) - but much of the time it was and remains trial and error. I've read a lot of the 'science' and I regret that most of it is subjective analysis with little or no veracity except, like me, a conviction that bees can survive without being treated for varroa.

My home apiary is in the centre of an area where there are large numbers of beekeepers - some treat, some don't, I live near the centre of town but within bee distance of farmland, allotments, parks, railway bankings and floral planting, there is a wide variety of forage for virtually 10 months of the year in the micro climate we enjoy in this locality. I do sometimes wonder whether this contributes to the success of a no-treatment regime. There are very few real brood breaks in my locaion to naturally curtail the varroa cycle - perhaps just December and January - as I said, we have a fortunate micro climate where there is very little in the way of extreme cold for any length of time.

There are many factors that contribute to bees who manage the varroa mite .. again, nobody really knows what the principal reasons are why some colonies survive with varroa and others fail.

Whether the lack of treatment with varroacides is one of them I don't know but if I treated my bees I would no longer be able to continue to test the various other aspects that may contribute to bees surviving and thriving alongside the varroa mite. In recent years alongside my local mongrels I have bought in native queens from other areas to compare their performance - It's early days but the smaller black bees seem to have lesser varroa loads than those that are derived from wider and much interbred stock - they both survive but the mite load appears to be consistently lower in the small black bees - I hesitate to use the word native because even these bees must have been mongralised at some point.

I welcome the OP's foray into the dark side ... I think, at present, the simplistic path encouraged by some of his readings and viewings may not, altogether, yield the results he appears to hope for. I certainly don't feel that simply releasing bees as swarms to become feral bees has any veracity in any sort of beekeeping.

As always, I would add the caveat - don't follow me along this path unless you are committed to it .. it's a hard ride and it's not just a case of stopping treatment.