Anyone tried or have comments on this..........

[HughMann]

Well ... firstly the term 'natural beekeeper' is a bit of sn oxymoron.

You seem to state that as an absolute fact. Not 'in my opinion'.
Quote: The natural beekeeping movement believes that bee hives are weakened by modern beekeeping and agricultural practices, such as crop spraying, hive movement, frequent hive inspections, artificial insemination of queens, routine medication, and sugar water feeding.

I cannot see that allowing them to swarm is creating any more of a brood break than performing an artificial swarm does ?

Exactly - they are the same - one less invasive

I don't treat for varroa and this is well documented on here but have you considered that if your 'natural' bees are riddled with varroa then the swarm that goes will take at least some of the mites with them- you are not helping the varroa problem you are compounding it.

This seems to be the "wild bees are riddled with varroa" myth that commercial bee sellers put out to stop new beekeepers from getting thei rbees for free. Verroa riddled bees surely die in the wild? Commercially obtained bees, however, could be so mollycoddled thay die more often and force the beekeeper to buy again. Add natural selection to deal with the problem maybe.

As for your last paragraph with all due respect (and that probably means I have little respect for it !) I'm afraid it's quite insulting to the vast majority of beekeepers I know who mostly care as much for their bees as they do for their family!

?? Which part? Do we really want all the available bees to purely be a commodity, bought and sold because there are none left in the wild? Do bee sellers want wild bees to be extinct to push up the price of bees or something?

You will not get an easy ride from some members on here I am afraid so be prepared.

Nothing here is original from me. All research, just a different source of research from you maybe. The similarities between beekeeping and religion are quite amazing; 'there is one true god - and despite there being over 4000 religions - every believer thinks THEY are right'.
I will listen to anyone, piece that in with what I have learnt and ask questions. But the 'I AM RIGHT', line just gets ignored.
Don't worry, I know exactly where the ignore button is

 

[HughMann]

Have you worked out how you are going to quarantine these swarms for a few weeks to establish they are free from diseases etc.??

Yep

 

[Boston Bees]

Don't worry, I know exactly where the ignore button is

There are certain members that this forum doesn't offer you the option to "Ignore", and those members tend to be the most vocal. Just to forewarn you.

But I agree with Pargyle. I have been down the road you are starting on, but I have reached the conclusion that letting bees swarm is sadly completely irresponsible, however many bait boxes you put up. Getting a colony cut out from a roof or chimney can cost an innocent householder hundreds of pounds, and do damage to their property. Join the "UK Bee Removers" Facebook page if you want to see some examples of what can be required. It simply isn't fair to inflict your hobby on some unsuspecting homeowner a mile or two away. We all lose swarms accidentally, but not making any attempt to stop them would make you a very bad neighbour.

PS: There are plenty of colonies in the wild, often from accidentally-missed swarms, you don't need to deliberately allow uncontrolled swarming in order to repopulate the country with bees.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Do I need to move this thread to the cupboard under the stairs?
Please be civil everybody

 

[HughMann]

Hi HughMann
great to see another experimenter!

Thanks, much appreciated. In everything I do, I research for years, combine ideas, explore myths and ask; What if? and Why?
Took 25 years researching the best motorbike designs and then built one that lasted me years and 250k+ miles
Took 15 years researching and designing my perfect bass guitar - (pity I can't play at the moment)
Spent 30 years researching and studying photography before buying my first camera - which has led to half my income!
My books do well because they are so 'out of box', but they are used by clients when conventional methods fail.
Research, experimentation, adaption.
Just copying what others have done, well, it seems a bit pointless

I'm going to try Long Hives next year... I think I have tried something similar to you with different entrances, as I designed a National Hive with multiple entrances, the way I did it was to build a Solid Floor with five entrances, one entrance on each of three of the sides and two entrances on the fourth side, they were small entrances as they were for two frame mating nucs, we seem to always have a problem with wasps in Ireland (I placed a coloured block of wood between the two entrances that were on the one side). Remember you can have numerous entrances in a hive if you are able to close the ones you don't need.

Where do you stand if there are entrances on all sides? Would be very interested in this as this would add many more possibilities.

I know a Beekeeper in Donegal that does what you do, and I do something similar in that I 'split in April and walk away in May', this year out of 15 odd hives only one swarmed, I've got neighbours nearby so the Queens wing was clipped and there was a wooden empty hive in the Apiary painted inside with propolise, I saw the bees trying to take up residence on a sunny day, I naturally lost the Queen on the ground somewhere, but I don't want swarmy bees, so she would have been going anyway.

Goodluck with your adventures in beekeeping.

Thanks for your kind comments

 

[Murox]

Yep

⚖

 

[HughMann]

.............It simply isn't fair to inflict your hobby on some unsuspecting homeowner a mile or two away. We all lose swarms accidentally, but not making any attempt to stop them would make you a very bad neighbour.

PS: There are plenty of colonies in the wild, often from accidentally-missed swarms, you don't need to deliberately allow uncontrolled swarming in order to repopulate the country with bees.

First line, first post - "So I am starting an out apiary next year and it is in the middle of a few miles of land owned by a friend."
To be more specific - about 4 miles to edge of land and probably 9 to my friends house (which already has a resident colony in his house).
So we are really saying we want to wipe out wild bees?

 

[Boston Bees]

So we are really saying we want to wipe out wild bees?

https://effectiviology.com/straw-man-arguments-recognize-counter-use/

 

[pargyle]

You seem to state that as an absolute fact. Not 'in my opinion'.
Quote: The natural beekeeping movement believes that bee hives are weakened by modern beekeeping and agricultural practices, such as crop spraying, hive movement, frequent hive inspections, artificial insemination of queens, routine medication, and sugar water feeding.

Exactly - they are the same - one less invasive

This seems to be the "wild bees are riddled with varroa" myth that commercial bee sellers put out to stop new beekeepers from getting thei rbees for free. Verroa riddled bees surely die in the wild? Commercially obtained bees, however, could be so mollycoddled thay die more often and force the beekeeper to buy again. Add natural selection to deal with the problem maybe.

?? Which part? Do we really want all the available bees to purely be a commodity, bought and sold because there are none left in the wild? Do bee sellers want wild bees to be extinct to push up the price of bees or something?

Nothing here is original from me. All research, just a different source of research from you maybe. The similarities between beekeeping and religion are quite amazing; 'there is one true god - and despite there being over 4000 religions - every believer thinks THEY are right'.
I will listen to anyone, piece that in with what I have learnt and ask questions. But the 'I AM RIGHT', line just gets ignored.
Don't worry, I know exactly where the ignore button is

Well ... firstly ... you are arguing with someone who believes that his bees should be treated as near to their life in the wild as is possible within the constraints of keeping bees - you are taking issue with the wrong person on here.

There are a few points above where you are making assumptions and mis-reading my comments .. so:

'Natural beekeeping' IS an oxymoron ... you cannot keep bees in a box and claim that they are being kept naturally ... end of. Watch them live in a hollow tree and I might agree with you.

So an A/S in a long deep hive is invasive ? So .. are you telling us that you do not intend to inspect the bees at all ? If so ... you are not a natural beekeeper you are a let alone beekeeper and that is a whole new ball game ... if you are going down this route you are NOT a beekeeper you are a bee haver. There are few on here that would have any truck with people who just put bees in a box and leave them to it on the basis that they are helping the planet - a totally misguided premise. If this is your position forget honey bees and concentrate your efforts on the myriad of pollinators that are in danger and you wlll be helping the planet.

To return to an A/S in an LDH .. moving a few frames and sliding in a division board is no more invasive than lifting the roof off and inspecting for disease (as any responsible beekeeper would do).

This seems to be the "wild bees are riddled with varroa" myth that commercial bee sellers put out to stop new beekeepers from getting thei rbees for free. Verroa riddled bees surely die in the wild? Commercially obtained bees, however, could be so mollycoddled thay die more often and force the beekeeper to buy again. Add natural selection to deal with the problem maybe.

This is so misguided I hardly think it's even worth commenting on .. I don't subscribe to the 'myth' you describe but, trust me, there are varroa present in every bee colony and in some areas they are much more prevalent than others ... and there is no gurantee that your 'wild bees' you seem to be going to rely on are any more resistant to varroa than those obtained from stock bought in or raised locally. Mollycoddling bees .. ? Not sure how you do that .. I don't treat but I provide superinsulated hives for my bees and I find that they can manage the varroa load without dying out. You should do a bit more research into the effect of heat and humidity on varroa mites ...

I see it as a symbiotic/sustainable relationship. Do we rerally want all the available bees to purely be a commodity, bought and sold because there are none left in the wild?

Suggesting that any beekeeper views his stock as a commodity is misundertanding beekeeping in general and very insulting to the greater majority who go to great lengths to look after their bees - if it wasn't for beekeepers in the UK the likelihood is that there would be no honey bees left in the UK. You have been influenced, I fear, by what has happened in the USA in recent years - far removed from UK beekeeping.

You say that the area around your hives is four miles .. that makes little difference - bees will fly that distance to forage, there will be other colonies within that perimeter and their 4 miles will overlap ... if every colony has a four mile radius - what do you think the chances of your colonies being totally insulated from other colonies are ?

It strikes me, if you are seeking the Ignore button, that you don't like the view of reality ... I don't know how long you have kept bees or what your beekeeping experience is but I rather fear it's future will be short lived if you persist in this self inflicted and frankly misguided concept. You say you are open to listening .. well - listen up ... take advice and constructive comments.

 

[pargyle]

https://effectiviology.com/straw-man-arguments-recognize-counter-use/

Yes ... I think you are right ....

 

[Erichalfbee]

There are certain members that this forum doesn't offer you the option to "Ignore", and those members tend to be the most vocal. Just to forewarn you.

You can ignore anybody you like apart from the mods and admin.

 

[Boston Bees]

You can ignore anybody you like apart from the mods and admin.

That's what I said, pretty much

 

[madasafish]

I find in life that if I ignore what some people say, I am end up being the fool who got it wrong. SO I deliberately read articles and comments I disagree with. And commentators I disagree with. Over a longish lifetime , I have found some ideas and thoughts I disagreed with have become mainstream (the effect of the microchip). And others which were clearly rubbish have stayed rubbish. (D Icke's reptiles).

I have to say I kept bees "naturally" in Top Bar Hives for 5 seasons.

It was a PIA and I gave up and became a conventional beekeeper.
Far more rewarding. and more interesting (especially queen rearing which is challenging at times and very rewarding when it works well).

But each to their own.

 

[HughMann]

Well ... firstly ... you are arguing with someone who believes that his bees should be treated as near to their life in the wild as is possible within the constraints of keeping bees - you are taking issue with the wrong person on here.

There are a few points above where you are making assumptions and mis-reading my comments .. so:

'Natural beekeeping' IS an oxymoron ... you cannot keep bees in a box and claim that they are being kept naturally ... end of. Watch them live in a hollow tree and I might agree with you.

So an A/S in a long deep hive is invasive ? So .. are you telling us that you do not intend to inspect the bees at all ? If so ... you are not a natural beekeeper you are a let alone beekeeper and that is a whole new ball game ... if you are going down this route you are NOT a beekeeper you are a bee haver. There are few on here that would have any truck with people who just put bees in a box and leave them to it on the basis that they are helping the planet - a totally misguided premise. If this is your position forget honey bees and concentrate your efforts on the myriad of pollinators that are in danger and you wlll be helping the planet.

To return to an A/S in an LDH .. moving a few frames and sliding in a division board is no more invasive than lifting the roof off and inspecting for disease (as any responsible beekeeper would do).

This seems to be the "wild bees are riddled with varroa" myth that commercial bee sellers put out to stop new beekeepers from getting thei rbees for free. Verroa riddled bees surely die in the wild? Commercially obtained bees, however, could be so mollycoddled thay die more often and force the beekeeper to buy again. Add natural selection to deal with the problem maybe.

This is so misguided I hardly think it's even worth commenting on .. I don't subscribe to the 'myth' you describe but, trust me, there are varroa present in every bee colony and in some areas they are much more prevalent than others ... and there is no gurantee that your 'wild bees' you seem to be going to rely on are any more resistant to varroa than those obtained from stock bought in or raised locally. Mollycoddling bees .. ? Not sure how you do that .. I don't treat but I provide superinsulated hives for my bees and I find that they can manage the varroa load without dying out. You should do a bit more research into the effect of heat and humidity on varroa mites ...

I see it as a symbiotic/sustainable relationship. Do we rerally want all the available bees to purely be a commodity, bought and sold because there are none left in the wild?

Suggesting that any beekeeper views his stock as a commodity is misundertanding beekeeping in general and very insulting to the greater majority who go to great lengths to look after their bees - if it wasn't for beekeepers in the UK the likelihood is that there would be no honey bees left in the UK. You have been influenced, I fear, by what has happened in the USA in recent years - far removed from UK beekeeping.

You say that the area around your hives is four miles .. that makes little difference - bees will fly that distance to forage, there will be other colonies within that perimeter and their 4 miles will overlap ... if every colony has a four mile radius - what do you think the chances of your colonies being totally insulated from other colonies are ?

It strikes me, if you are seeking the Ignore button, that you don't like the view of reality ... I don't know how long you have kept bees or what your beekeeping experience is but I rather fear it's future will be short lived if you persist in this self inflicted and frankly misguided concept. You say you are open to listening .. well - listen up ... take advice and constructive comments.

All I can say to all that is that I have researched many many books, listened to many lectures and taken notes on what I like and what I don't like the sound of, the closest to one of the ways I will be trying is from this one - Keeping Bees With a Smile | Natural Beekeeping | Horizontal Hives
Far from being an advanced idea, it is based on an very simple, cheap and natural way that I would like to try.
Its not the only thing I will be trying. I merely asked about swarm distances and ()as usual on forums) side tracking occurred.
I listen to anyone that actually puts forward an idea, belief or opinion, but saying - this is so and nothing else, just gets ignored.

 

[Murox]

All I can say to all that is that I have researched many many books, listened to many lectures and taken notes on what I like and what I don't like the sound of, the closest to one of the ways I will be trying is from this one - Keeping Bees With a Smile | Natural Beekeeping | Horizontal Hives
Far from being an advanced idea, it is based on an very simple, cheap and natural way that I would like to try.
Its not the only thing I will be trying. I merely asked about swarm distances and ()as usual on forums) side tracking occurred.
I listen to anyone that actually puts forward an idea, belief or opinion, but saying - this is so and nothing else, just gets ignored.

"Keeping Bees with a Smile" is one of my favourites. Of course Lazutin developed his thinking in a particularly rich and verdant area of Russia which he constantly added to/enhanced each year, providing his bees with a wonderful environment .

 

[Rockingod]

All I can say to all that is that I have researched many many books, listened to many lectures and taken notes on what I like and what I don't like the sound of, the closest to one of the ways I will be trying is from this one - Keeping Bees With a Smile | Natural Beekeeping | Horizontal Hives
Far from being an advanced idea, it is based on an very simple, cheap and natural way that I would like to try.
Its not the only thing I will be trying. I merely asked about swarm distances and ()as usual on forums) side tracking occurred.
I listen to anyone that actually puts forward an idea, belief or opinion, but saying - this is so and nothing else, just gets ignored.

Hi Hugh, Yep...your quite right about the 'side tracking' etc. It happens on most forums and can be a bit annoying at times but stick with us. There are a lot of good solid BEEKs on here.
I would be highly supportive of your actions and ideas. All BEEKs have their own slant at doing things in a particular fashion but what we all want at the end of the day are strong healthy bees. You sound like you've researched the subject well so you carry on mate and don't worry about the comments from the 'doom and gloom' merchants. If your ideas don't come up to your high expectations then simply go back to square one and start again. (Like most of us have done at some time but who don't always like admitting it!)
Best of luck and I hope it all works out for you!!

 

[HughMann]

Well ... firstly ... you are arguing with someone who believes that his bees should be treated as near to their life in the wild as is possible within the constraints of keeping bees - you are taking issue with the wrong person on here.

There are a few points above where you are making assumptions and mis-reading my comments .. so:

'Natural beekeeping' IS an oxymoron ... you cannot keep bees in a box and claim that they are being kept naturally ... end of. Watch them live in a hollow tree and I might agree with you.

So an A/S in a long deep hive is invasive ? So .. are you telling us that you do not intend to inspect the bees at all ? If so ... you are not a natural beekeeper you are a let alone beekeeper and that is a whole new ball game ... if you are going down this route you are NOT a beekeeper you are a bee haver. There are few on here that would have any truck with people who just put bees in a box and leave them to it on the basis that they are helping the planet - a totally misguided premise. If this is your position forget honey bees and concentrate your efforts on the myriad of pollinators that are in danger and you wlll be helping the planet.

To return to an A/S in an LDH .. moving a few frames and sliding in a division board is no more invasive than lifting the roof off and inspecting for disease (as any responsible beekeeper would do).

This seems to be the "wild bees are riddled with varroa" myth that commercial bee sellers put out to stop new beekeepers from getting thei rbees for free. Verroa riddled bees surely die in the wild? Commercially obtained bees, however, could be so mollycoddled thay die more often and force the beekeeper to buy again. Add natural selection to deal with the problem maybe.

This is so misguided I hardly think it's even worth commenting on .. I don't subscribe to the 'myth' you describe but, trust me, there are varroa present in every bee colony and in some areas they are much more prevalent than others ... and there is no gurantee that your 'wild bees' you seem to be going to rely on are any more resistant to varroa than those obtained from stock bought in or raised locally. Mollycoddling bees .. ? Not sure how you do that .. I don't treat but I provide superinsulated hives for my bees and I find that they can manage the varroa load without dying out. You should do a bit more research into the effect of heat and humidity on varroa mites ...

I see it as a symbiotic/sustainable relationship. Do we rerally want all the available bees to purely be a commodity, bought and sold because there are none left in the wild?

Suggesting that any beekeeper views his stock as a commodity is misundertanding beekeeping in general and very insulting to the greater majority who go to great lengths to look after their bees - if it wasn't for beekeepers in the UK the likelihood is that there would be no honey bees left in the UK. You have been influenced, I fear, by what has happened in the USA in recent years - far removed from UK beekeeping.

You say that the area around your hives is four miles .. that makes little difference - bees will fly that distance to forage, there will be other colonies within that perimeter and their 4 miles will overlap ... if every colony has a four mile radius - what do you think the chances of your colonies being totally insulated from other colonies are ?

It strikes me, if you are seeking the Ignore button, that you don't like the view of reality ... I don't know how long you have kept bees or what your beekeeping experience is but I rather fear it's future will be short lived if you persist in this self inflicted and frankly misguided concept. You say you are open to listening .. well - listen up ... take advice and constructive comments.

All I can say to all that is that I have researched many many books, listened to many lectures and taken notes on what I like and what I don't like the sound of, the closest to one of the ways I will be trying is from this book - Keeping Bees With a Smile | Natural Beekeeping | Horizontal Hives
Far from being an advanced idea, it is based on an very simple, cheap and natural way that I would like to try.
Its not the only thing I will be trying. I merely asked about swarm distances and (as usual on forums) side tracking occurred.
I listen to anyone that actually puts forward an idea, belief or opinion. The 'I know where the ignore button is' was in response to your 'You will not get an easy ride from some members on here I am afraid so be prepared' comment.

 

[HughMann]

Hi Hugh, Yep...your quite right about the 'side tracking' etc. It happens on most forums and can be a bit annoying at times but stick with us. There are a lot of good solid BEEKs on here.
I would be highly supportive of your actions and ideas. All BEEKs have their own slant at doing things in a particular fashion but what we all want at the end of the day are strong healthy bees. You sound like you've researched the subject well so you carry on mate and don't worry about the comments from the 'doom and gloom' merchants. If your ideas don't come up to your high expectations then simply go back to square one and start again. (Like most of us have done at some time but who don't always like admitting it!)
Best of luck and I hope it all works out for you!!

O, diolch yn fawr iawn

 

[pargyle]

I find in life that if I ignore what some people say, I am end up being the fool who got it wrong. SO I deliberately read articles and comments I disagree with. And commentators I disagree with. Over a longish lifetime , I have found some ideas and thoughts I disagreed with have become mainstream (the effect of the microchip). And others which were clearly rubbish have stayed rubbish. (D Icke's reptiles).

I have to say I kept bees "naturally" in Top Bar Hives for 5 seasons.

It was a PIA and I gave up and became a conventional beekeeper.
Far more rewarding. and more interesting (especially queen rearing which is challenging at times and very rewarding when it works well).

But each to their own.

You just can't help some people ... the problem with beekeeping research is that until you have kept bees you can be influenced by people who make a lot of noise but have little real experience of keeping bees ... not everything is as some would have us believe. I'm giving up on this thread now - there's only so much you can do to assist when rigid principles get in the way of common sense.

The more you know the less you understand. Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu
Be like the Bamboo - sway with the breeze Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu

 

[Newbeeneil]

So I am starting an out apiary next year and it is in the middle of a few miles of land owned by a friend.
I am building some long hives (12x14 framed), and am very interested in what Dr Leo advocates regarding hive management.
If (and this is what I have gleaned so far in research on the subject), when bees swarm they like to settle down at least 300feet away from their original hive, then I have plenty of places to capture them in swarm traps around the land (there are no mature rotting trees to compeate with my ideal homes!).
So instead of spending a LOT of time preventing swarms, I just collect them................... see where I am going with this?
All useful comments and links etc. appreciated
btw my long 12x14 hives will be equivalent to just over 4 nationals in a line with division boards and a multitude of entrance options so I can have anything from 2 frame mating to 16 frame full hive (plans to be released as soon as I have finished the builds). The main issue I am working on at the moment is separation of entrances. Any ideas on this would be interesting.
Thanks

The main problem I see with your idea is that although swarms normally initially settle a short distance from their hive, as I understand it they then send out scouts further afield to look for a permenant home. You MAY therefore capture some of your swarms but unless you are going to be checking several times a day the emanating swarms are likely to disappear to other homes. I appreciate you say that there are no better homes around but bees in my opinion are contrary in their habits.
Good luck with your venture, let us know how it goes good or bad!