Anyone tried or have comments on this..........

[HughMann]

So I am starting an out apiary next year and it is in the middle of a few miles of land owned by a friend.
I am building some long hives (12x14 framed), and am very interested in what Dr Leo advocates regarding hive management.
If (and this is what I have gleaned so far in research on the subject), when bees swarm they like to settle down at least 300feet away from their original hive, then I have plenty of places to capture them in swarm traps around the land (there are no mature rotting trees to compeate with my ideal homes!).
So instead of spending a LOT of time preventing swarms, I just collect them................... see where I am going with this?
All useful comments and links etc. appreciated
btw my long 12x14 hives will be equivalent to just over 4 nationals in a line with division boards and a multitude of entrance options so I can have anything from 2 frame mating to 16 frame full hive (plans to be released as soon as I have finished the builds). The main issue I am working on at the moment is separation of entrances. Any ideas on this would be interesting.
Thanks

 

[Ian123]

Learn to keep bees before running off with weird ideas and set ups. Long hives are not the best and I’ve had a few, bees are reluctant to push sideways when there’s any sort of income. As to not spending time on the bees/swarm control it’s part of beekeeping and if your keeping them right It’s not that bad, you may not get it 100% right but few of us do. If your not prepared to put the effort in then beekeeping probably not for you. You’ll spend more time up a tree or pulling them out of traps than any swarm control measures will take you..... Ian

 

[pargyle]

Forget letting them swarm ... Long hives are great static hives and the bees like them. They won't produce as much honey as a vertical hive and you will have the problem of extracting 14 x 12 frames if you want to take the honey off (which will mean crush and strain if you don't have an extractor capable of coping with 14 x 12 frames).

Swarm control is easy in a long hive .. you use division boards. You see queen cells, knock them down to one or two .. find the queen and separate her from the brood and the queen cells with a division board, open up the second entrance and jobs done.

Entrances - one central in the middle of the long side, one at each end diagonally opposed - make them round and seal with corks when not in use.

I'm sure you will have seen my LDH but just in case:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/albums/72157634865981506
You might also have a read of this:

https://www.thezesthive.com/
and tf you are really serious about a Long Deep Hive then this is must read ...

https://www.northernbeebooks.co.uk/products/dartington-new-beekeeping-in-a-long-deep-hive/
or here:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Beek...403514&hash=item523cb6d970:g:9rkAAOSwbc1fY3Rb

 

[Apiarist]

Hi HughMann

great to see another experimenter!

I'm going to try Long Hives next year... I think I have tried something similar to you with different entrances, as I designed a National Hive with multiple entrances, the way I did it was to build a Solid Floor with five entrances, one entrance on each of three of the sides and two entrances on the fourth side, they were small entrances as they were for two frame mating nucs, we seem to always have a problem with wasps in Ireland (I placed a coloured block of wood between the two entrances that were on the one side). Remember you can have numerous entrances in a hive if you are able to close the ones you don't need.

If you're going to put multiple entrances on one side that are going to be close then you could increase their 'distance' by having upper and lower entrances for different sections.

As I made my own National Brood Boxes the internal measurements were out by a mm or 2 here and there, so I needed to make sure the Divider Boards were tight, with hindsight a couple mm of a gap wasn't a problem if the Divider Board was thick.

I know a Beekeeper in Donegal that does what you do, and I do something similar in that I 'split in April and walk away in May', this year out of 15 odd hives only one swarmed, I've got neighbours nearby so the Queens wing was clipped and there was a wooden empty hive in the Apiary painted inside with propolise, I saw the bees trying to take up residence on a sunny day, I naturally lost the Queen on the ground somewhere, but I don't want swarmy bees, so she would have been going anyway.

Goodluck with your adventures in beekeeping.

PS: pargyle
thanks mate for your Post, those are great links!

 

[Murox]

So I am starting an out apiary next year and it is in the middle of a few miles of land owned by a friend.
I am building some long hives (12x14 framed), and am very interested in what Dr Leo advocates regarding hive management.
If (and this is what I have gleaned so far in research on the subject), when bees swarm they like to settle down at least 300feet away from their original hive, then I have plenty of places to capture them in swarm traps around the land (there are no mature rotting trees to compeate with my ideal homes!).
So instead of spending a LOT of time preventing swarms, I just collect them................... see where I am going with this?
All useful comments and links etc. appreciated
btw my long 12x14 hives will be equivalent to just over 4 nationals in a line with division boards and a multitude of entrance options so I can have anything from 2 frame mating to 16 frame full hive (plans to be released as soon as I have finished the builds). The main issue I am working on at the moment is separation of entrances. Any ideas on this would be interesting.
Thanks

Are you referring to Dr Leonid Sharashkin of Horizontal hives .com ? you can glean a deal of information from his hive plans.
i think your proposed hive size of four nationals in a line is ambitious. Keep us informed .

 

[pargyle]

Are you referring to Dr Leonid Sharashkin of Horizontal hives .com ? you can glean a deal of information from his hive plans.
i think your proposed hive size of four nationals in a line is ambitious. Keep us informed .

With 14 x 12 frames I reckon the optimum size is about 20 to 25 frames ... LDH do develop big colonies ... I've seen 12/13 frames of brood in mine without them swarming. They are great for use as donor hives - with a strong queen you can keep taking off frames of emerging brood to bolster your production colonies.

 

[Murox]

With 14 x 12 frames I reckon the optimum size is about 20 to 25 frames ... LDH do develop big colonies ... I've seen 12/13 frames of brood in mine without them swarming. They are great for use as donor hives - with a strong queen you can keep taking off frames of emerging brood to bolster your production colonies.

yes I agree about 20 -25 frames, ambitious as in a BIG undertaking for a first long hive. By the way have you ever used horizontal slits as entrances in your horizontal hives, or do you only use round holes ?

 

[HughMann]

Are you referring to Dr Leonid Sharashkin of Horizontal hives .com ? you can glean a deal of information from his hive plans.
i think your proposed hive size of four nationals in a line is ambitious. Keep us informed .

That is the guy. A very helpful and humane person in every respect.
Maybe I didn't explain the hive perpose before (I was mainly asking about natural swarming advantages as Dr L talks about and if the 300 feet rule is of use). The long hives will be used for everything BUT honey. A real bank of resources for the honey hives. Letting them swarm naturally if they want is a key objective (not some sort of lazy method of bee keeping!).

 

[pargyle]

yes I agree about 20 -25 frames, ambitious as in a BIG undertaking for a first long hive. By the way have you ever used horizontal slits as entrances in your horizontal hives, or do you only use round holes ?

No - just round holes. Although I found the periscope entrance was really good as there was no heat coming out at the top of the hive. I also used half corks as entrance reducers when necessary. I might have the entrances lower down the side when I make another rather than at the top - although the bees don't seem to mind.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/albums/72157644091488819

 

[HughMann]

With 14 x 12 frames I reckon the optimum size is about 20 to 25 frames ... LDH do develop big colonies ... I've seen 12/13 frames of brood in mine without them swarming. They are great for use as donor hives - with a strong queen you can keep taking off frames of emerging brood to bolster your production colonies.

Exactly, thanks. I would not be having ALL the long hive as one mega collony (well maybe if they wanted it), its a resource hive, divider boards placed wherever the sections require it.

 

[Murox]

I see, an interesting notion. Whilst bees will always swarm eventually you may well find that in a large horizontal set up you will have to create conditions which encourage them to actually swarm. Its also very easy using division boards to make an increase.

 

[HughMann]

No - just round holes. Although I found the periscope entrance was really good as there was no heat coming out at the top of the hive. I also used half corks as entrance reducers when necessary. I might have the entrances lower down the side when I make another rather than at the top - although the bees don't seem to mind.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/albums/72157644091488819

Very inspiring - I was thinking different sides, colors, hight, underfloor maybe - but periscope genious, thanks

 

[pargyle]

I see, an interesting notion. Whilst bees will always swarm eventually you may well find that in a large horizontal set up you will have to create conditions which encourage them to actually swarm. Its also very easy using division boards to make an increase.

Yes ... they have so much room to expand they rarely reach the point where swarming becomes necessary - but you do get very big colonies if you don't milk them for brood. I would not run more than 2 colonies in an LDH except perhaps I decided to do a three way split - but I'd be ready to move one of them out as soon as they had a viable queen or they may rapidly reach a size where they would swarm.

 

[Murox]

No - just round holes. Although I found the periscope entrance was really good as there was no heat coming out at the top of the hive. I also used half corks as entrance reducers when necessary. I might have the entrances lower down the side when I make another rather than at the top - although the bees don't seem to mind.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/albums/72157644091488819

cheers. I have one with the entrance, round holes, about a third of the way up from the bottom of the frame, seems to work well

 

[HughMann]

Maybe I should just ask this - will a ring fence of swarm traps at 350+ feet catch the majority of swarms from my long hive? No rotting trees for miles.

 

[pargyle]

Maybe I should just ask this - will a ring fence of swarm traps at 350+ feet catch the majority of swarms from my long hive? No rotting trees for miles.

You can never guarantee it ... swarms will often settle initially close to the colony they have swarmed from but the scouts can then travel considerable distances to find their new home. The committtee will then consider what the various scounts recommend and they could go miles ...

Whilst you may provide what you think is the perfect home for them close to the original colony you can never predict what the bees would like and you may lose a large chunk of your bees.

I can't really see the benefit in letting them swarm.... once they have made queen cells it is almost certain that they will swarm (assuming they are not superceding) - doing an artificial swarm is just replicating with some certainty what they will do anyway - you can do an AS and move the queen and half the colony into another hive - and leave the brood and queen cells with the other half. Why do you feel the need to let them swarm ? If you are not there all the time.... there's every chance you will miss the event and bait hives, whilst they can work, are not 100% failsafes ...

 

[HughMann]

You can never guarantee it ... they may settle initially close to the colony they have swarmed from but the scouts can travel considerable distances to find their new home and whilst you may provide what you think is the perfect home for them you can never predict what they would like and you may lose a large chunk of your bees.

I can't really see the benefit in letting them swarm.... once they have made queen cells there it is almost certain that they will swarm (assuming they are not superceding) - doing an artificial swarm is just replicating with some certainty what they will do anyway - you can do an AS an move the queen and half the colony into another hive - and leave the brood and cells with the other half. Why do you feel the need to let them swarm ? If you are not there all the time.... there's every chance you will miss the event and bait hive, whilst they can work, are not 100% failsafes ...

Thanks. Scouts traveling a considerable distance could be an issue then. But as you see below, not the only reason for swarm release.
Dr Leo is very much of the natural beekeeping church and I want to try that alongside the more UK based style. So letting the hive swarm and getting a natural brood break to help with verroa control is not an issue for me in a resource hive. The resource hives will not just be for me; but the bees and the local area. After all, I will be getting the bees from the locality (via swarm traps), should I really be preventing the area from getting swarms in return? I see it as a symbiotic/sustainable relationship. Do we rerally want all the available bees to purely be a commodity, bought and sold because there are none left in the wild?

 

[pargyle]

Thanks. Scouts traveling a considerable distance could be an issue then. But as you see below, not the only reason for swarm release.
Dr Leo is very much of the natural beekeeping church and I want to try that alongside the more UK based style. So letting the hive swarm and getting a natural brood break to help with verroa control is not an issue for me in a resource hive. The resource hives will not just be for me; but the bees and the local area. After all, I will be getting the bees from the locality (via swarm traps), should I really be preventing the area from getting swarms in return? I see it as a symbiotic/sustainable relationship. Do we rerally want all the available bees to purely be a commodity, bought and sold because there are none left in the wild?

Well ... firstly the term 'natural beekeeper' is a bit of sn oxymoron. If you keep bees at all in a box then they are NOT living naturally. I keep bees with minimal intervention and I like the fact that my bees do mostly what they want to do. I cannot see that allowing them to swarm is creating any more of a brood break than performing an artificial swarm does ? I don't treat for varroa and this is well documented on here but have you considered that if your 'natural' bees are riddled with varroa then the swarm that goes will take at least some of the mites with them- you are not helping the varroa problem you are compounding it. As for your last paragraph with all due respect (and that probably means I have little respect for it !) I'm afraid it's quite insulting to the vast majority of beekeepers I know who mostly care as much for their bees as they do for their family! It shows perhaps a naivety in your thinking and you should look a little wider to your horizons in keeping bees in a more natural way to find a path (as I have) that meets the philosophy but with a degree of responsibility. You will not get an easy ride from some members on here I am afraid so be prepared.

 

[drex]

I run mainly Nationals but also have two Kenyan top bar hives and a Warre, on which I practice minimal intervention. Like an earlier comment, I was glad I had experience of managing conventional hives before making these. I know you are proposing to use frames, but long hives have their own unique challenges.
I also use bait hives, which they will use sometimes, but sometimes they won't.
Unfortunately the bees will do what the bees will do. They do not read the books.
I admire your enthusiasm, but humbly suggest you walk before trying to run.

 

[Murox]

Thanks. Scouts traveling a considerable distance could be an issue then. But as you see below, not the only reason for swarm release.
Dr Leo is very much of the natural beekeeping church and I want to try that alongside the more UK based style. So letting the hive swarm and getting a natural brood break to help with verroa control is not an issue for me in a resource hive. The resource hives will not just be for me; but the bees and the local area. After all, I will be getting the bees from the locality (via swarm traps), should I really be preventing the area from getting swarms in return? I see it as a symbiotic/sustainable relationship. Do we rerally want all the available bees to purely be a commodity, bought and sold because there are none left in the wild?

Have you worked out how you are going to quarantine these swarms for a few weeks to establish they are free from diseases etc.??