Anybody using natural drawn comb??

[Madge]

AMMs are naturally larger... and have shown varroa / disease resistance...

Yes, AMM are larger, but it is Cerana that have shown resistance - I suppose that is what you meant to say.

 

[GeekBeek]

There are breeders encouraging hygienic behaviour in western honey bees. And a few that have successfully bred bees with all variations of the behaviour. A trait that I think was observed in the Asian honey bee first. As far as I have discovered the main traits for co-existing with varroa are hygienic behaviour, regular swarming, shorter brood period and smaller bee. It looks like the small size is linked to the shorter brood period. A couple of field experiments I have read, have noted that colonies of a smaller size seemed to be considerably more resilient than their larger brethren. So has anyone seen a difference in the size of their bees on natural comb and noted any strength/weakness to the different sized bees?? Finman, Im hoping you have something t add here!

 

[Finman]

.
Asian honey bee and Europen honey bee have nothing to do each other.
Ceranea has its own hygienic behaviour and it has its own diseases.
There are giant honeybee too with its big cells.
In Malaysea there are very small ceranea races. It is half size that of European bee.

But as said, hygienic behaviour is not connected to varroa.

It has been researched the behind hygenic behaviour there are 5-6 gene mutations.
Australian beekeepers tested their bees and noticed first that only 10% had hygienic behaviour.
With crossings they achieved quite quickly 80% ratio. Same have happened in Canada.

As far as I know, in Finland bee breeders do not test hygienic features.

.

 

[Finman]

.
It has been shown in many researches that small cell do not protect bees against varroa.

Idea to cell size derives from a Brasilian reseach where africanized bee was compared to European bee and it cell size. Africanized bee, which is near scutellata, lives quite well with varroa.
These are old stories but they have not helped in fight against varroa.

 

[GeekBeek]

Thats very good information Finman, thanks! Hmmm do you have any suggestions why smaller European honey bees would be more resilient against varroa then? I still agree with you and don't think cell size is a factor. Bees at their natural size on their own comb in a less stressful environment might be more inclined to exhibit resilience to varroa and diseases though. A faster brood cycle could probably help.....I'd like to know if a natural small bee size would increase the speed of the brood cycle. Ironically, as much as the african and Asian honey bees have nothing to do with our European honey bees they have adaptations we can learn from as Keepers. And also show that they have had to adapt at some point to the varroa. The Australians and Canadians have shown that possibly our bees have the potential to adapt as well. Why hasn't there been a push to breed for hygienic behaviours in Finland, Finman?

 

[Finman]

Thats very good information Finman, thanks! Hmmm do you have any suggestions why smaller European honey bees would be more resilient against varroa then? I still agree with you and don't think cell size is a factor. Bees at their natural size on their own comb in a less stressful environment might be more inclined to exhibit resilience to varroa and diseases though. A faster brood cycle could probably help.....I'd like to know if a natural small bee size would increase the speed of the brood cycle. Ironically, as much as the african and Asian honey bees have nothing to do with our European honey bees they have adaptations we can learn from as Keepers. And also show that they have had to adapt at some point to the varroa. The Australians and Canadians have shown that possibly our bees have the potential to adapt as well. Why hasn't there been a push to breed for hygienic behaviours in Finland, Finman?

Your questions are same what have repeated tens on times on forums.

Varroa tolerancy, shorter brood cycle and smaller cells are features of Africanized honeybee which is very close to A. scutellata.

You must continue your personal information inspecting. One nature lover can ask more than 10 wise can answer.

 

[PBee]

...... Bees at their natural size on their own comb in a less stressful environment might be more inclined to exhibit resilience to varroa and diseases though. A faster brood cycle could probably help.....I'd like to know if a natural small bee size would increase the speed of the brood cycle. .....

In unmanaged populations a degree of resistance can develop. In this study two separate populations appeared to have different mechanisms ...

A suggested mechanism involved in reducing the mite's reproductive success could be for example, the adult bee behavior known as Varroa-sensitive hygiene (VSH), which involves the uncapping or removal of mite-infested brood (Harbo and Harris 2005; Ibrahim and Spivak 2006). It has been shown that bee colonies expressing this behavioral trait may selectively remove pupae with reproducing mites resulting in the remaining infested cells having a misrepresented higher proportion of infertile mites (Harbo and Harris 2005; Ibrahim and Spivak 2006). This could potentially be a mechanism of the Avignon population, in light of the observed high mite infertility rates. Since the Gotland population does not demonstrate hygienic behavior (Locke and Fries 2011) nor had significantly high proportions of infertile mites, there is no reason to suspect that they are expressing VSH. Instead, the suppression of mite reproductive success in Gotland may be due to another mechanism, such as pupal volatile compounds that can inhibit the initiation of egg-laying of mites (Garrido and Rosenkranz 2003; Milani et al. 2004).http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402190/

 

[Mellona]

Foundationless frames

In my hives I only use Foundationless frames both for brood and honey. I'm in all medium Langstroth boxes. I do it because the research at the U of Ga shows that all wax commercially purchased has much residue of poison like coumaphos, Fluvalenate. I don't worry about cell size although it is obvious that they build larger cells for drones and honey and smaller cells for brood. I don't use an extractor so I don't worry about wires because crush and strain which is how I harvest, wires would be an issue.

If you use Foundationless frames it is important that your hive be level side to side - it helps the bees draw straight comb. Another help is to put a full frame of drawn comb into the center of each newly added box. It gives the bees a "ladder" to move up into the box of empty frames. I use strips of wax or I have in the past to give the bees a place to start. This year I'll probably use Popsicle sticks.

 

[rook66]

.
It has been shown in many researches that small cell do not protect bees against varroa.

Idea to cell size derives from a Brasilian reseach where africanized bee was compared to European bee and it cell size. Africanized bee, which is near scutellata, lives quite well with varroa.
These are old stories but they have not helped in fight against varroa.[/QUOTE]

Very true, Dee lusby has been at this for years, to the extent that it has become tiresome, the tune has changed so many times that it has lost crediblity, these days she no longer refers to small cell foundation, but to natural comb.Doubting Thomas's are not welcome on her forum?
This document, based on experience and research by Erik Osterund was published in 1991
http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/artcl/EOABJ91en.html

 

[Finman]

This document, based on experience and research by Erik Osterund was published in 1991
http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/artcl/EOABJ91en.html

Yes, 20 years old- Osterlund developed Elgon bee race. However during 20 years Elgon bee have not hit through. For example I hade those bees but crossings between Italians were dangerous to keep. It is easier to nurse varroa than those bees.

You know Monticola bee from its black color. When I had very hot hives, they had those black bees.
Monticola lives on mountains of Elgon in Kenya.

http://www.elgon.se/index-eng.htm


.

 

[GeekBeek]

Thanks P-Bee! I'd love to know what the exact mechanisms are for those bees survival. Although once again Finman, you have started to resort to name calling. I am aware that those traits belong to the African bees but Im trying to find if those adaptations would be viable in the European honey bees. Things we may be able to breed for and if anyone has tried to breed for them before. If you aren't going to help, you are quite clearly part of the problem. Very very OBVIOUSLY there are instances of European bees adapting and evolving. Instances where breeders are breeding bees for resilient behaviours. There have been failures but there have definitely been successes too. So why sit there shouting doom and gloom?? If you're not happy that people are trying to be positive, are looking for ways forward, are trying to learn and are looking to all resources to improve the very industry you have been involved with for 40 years......then be quite and let the people with energy and enthusiasm and a positive attitude get on with it please.

 

[Finman]

I am aware that those traits belong to the African bees but Im trying to find if those adaptations would be viable in the European honey bees.

If you aren't going to help, you are quite clearly part of the problem. V
If you're not happy that people are trying to be positive, .

Save the world with natural combs!

I am not going to help mad to be more mad.



.

 

[beeno]

Thanks P-Bee! I'd love to know what the exact mechanisms are for those bees survival. Although once again Finman, you have started to resort to name calling. I am aware that those traits belong to the African bees but Im trying to find if those adaptations would be viable in the European honey bees. Things we may be able to breed for and if anyone has tried to breed for them before. If you aren't going to help, you are quite clearly part of the problem. Very very OBVIOUSLY there are instances of European bees adapting and evolving. Instances where breeders are breeding bees for resilient behaviours. There have been failures but there have definitely been successes too. So why sit there shouting doom and gloom?? If you're not happy that people are trying to be positive, are looking for ways forward, are trying to learn and are looking to all resources to improve the very industry you have been involved with for 40 years......then be quite and let the people with energy and enthusiasm and a positive attitude get on with it please.

Sorry GeekBeek, BUT
you don't invite someone personally to take part in your thread and then diss them when you don't like their answer - all the toys out the pram springs to mind here. You joined this forum in February 2013 and you don't even qualify as a 'two hive owner' to use Finman's turn of phrase. Hope you don't mind me saying so, but your attitude above does not come across as positive. Folly of youth or grumpy old man. Which?

 

[beeno]

Hi mbc,
First of all I don't mind being wrong. Secondly, it is confusing being a newbie with all the information and misinformation out there. Can you therfore please try and reconcile my statement in post 22 with your question in post 25 'Bees already unnaturally forced to be larger than their natural size?' I am not sure if you are posing it as a question or a statement. If a statement how is it done?

 

[Finman]

Hi mbc,
First of all I don't mind being wrong. Secondly, it is confusing being a newbie with all the information and misinformation out there. Can you therfore please try and reconcile my statement in post 22 with your question in post 25 'Bees already unnaturally forced to be larger than their natural size?' I am not sure if you are posing it as a question or a statement. If a statement how is it done?

No one knows what is natural bee. Honeybee has been nursed so widely and so long.

Some bees are 10% bigger than others.

So we look other domestic animals. In India there is smallest cow race. It is 100 kg.
Normal milking cow is nowadays 800-1000 kg. Finland had cow race about 300 kg.

Which one we shoose as natural weight and others have "forced"

 

[mbc]

Hi Polyanwood,
I am possibly wrong here, but I thought the bee was fed/grew to the size of the cell? That's why one gets mini drones sometimes when a drone has been raised in a worker cell?

Hi mbc,
First of all I don't mind being wrong. Secondly, it is confusing being a newbie with all the information and misinformation out there. Can you therfore please try and reconcile my statement in post 22 with your question in post 25 'Bees already unnaturally forced to be larger than their natural size?' I am not sure if you are posing it as a question or a statement. If a statement how is it done?

Hi beeno
One gets mini drones when a queen lays an unfertilized egg in a worker cell. On second perusal your post doesn't contradict this. My apologies.
As to post 25, this was in reply to a o90o post which has since been edited, but essentially yes, as my understanding goes, large cell bases in foundation = large bees.

 

[beeno]

Thanks mbc. That's what I have been told, but you never know in this business. Someone come along in a minute ...

 

[GeekBeek]

It was the folly of Finman calling me names on two threads because he doesn't understand what Im saying. That was the best I could do without swearing, sorry guys. I think he bears a grudge against me because I don't want to keep bees his way and that im looking for possibilities amongst the failures.
THANK GOD FOR THE IGNORE BUTTON!! Why didnt someone tell me about that sooner huh?? I don't intend to save the world with natural comb or small cell foundation. I'm just trying to find if anyone has bees on natural comb that are small bees and if they have exhibited any strengths or weaknesses. In a couple of field experiments smaller bees have appeared to be more tolerant or resistant toward varroa. And the best way to judge the size of your bees is to measure the comb, right?......I imagine hand measuring bees would be a massive ball ache.

 

[oliver90owner]

the best way to judge the size of your bees is to measure the comb, right?......

Well, not exactly/entirely - it might also depend on the pitch of the frames (not read or understood my previous posts?).

 

[Madge]

...It looks like the small size is linked to the shorter brood period. A couple of field experiments I have read, have noted that colonies of a smaller size seemed to be considerably more resilient than their larger brethren. ...

...In a couple of field experiments smaller bees have appeared to be more tolerant or resistant toward varroa. ...

Asian bees are smaller. I've never read anywhere that it is their smaller size that helps them fight Varroa. Can you let me know where you've read that?
Thanks, Kitta