Anybody using natural drawn comb??

[Finman]

?

Since I start with empty topbars, how can I set the comb spacing? By telepathy?

i have set up frame distance with finger tips. Your measure the distance and learn to use as measure your finger tips.

 

[madasafish]

Width of the topbars dictates the spacing between midribs of combs, surely?
(I know this whole discussion is actually supposed to be about cell pitch, I only introduced the spacing between combs because I was trying to make sense of o9o's gnomic utterances. Sorry!)

In theory yes.

If bees always drew combs in straight lines, and evenly..

In the real world....


(I blame the ley lines

 

[Black Comb]

Some books (e.g. JB Free) state that because of residues left in the cells by the larvae the cell size gradually reduces over time.
So, those using old combs, do you have small bees?

 

[For want of a better word]

Do you you that bees get any benefit in terms of energy conservation from smaller cells?

I guess that it might be easier for the heater bees to keep each pupa warm if it is snuggly housed in the cell, rather than has 'spare' room? If this is true, then natural (smaller cell) comb would be especially beneficial in colder climates.

A question about heater bees...
I had it explained to me last year that heater bees are specially adapted to fit into special empty cells often located over the wires in wired brood foundation as the wires transfer heat more efficiently across the comb.
Another myth to be busted?

 

[Finman]

A question about heater bees...
I had it explained to me last year that heater bees are specially adapted to fit into special empty cells often located over the wires in wired brood foundation as the wires transfer heat more efficiently across the comb.
Another myth to be busted?

oh dear. Now I understand why UK combs are so densily wired.
i use nowadays 2 wires.

 

[Finman]

Some books (e.g. JB Free) state that because of residues left in the cells by the larvae the cell size gradually reduces over time.
So, those using old combs, do you have small bees?

yes, but they must be really old combs and soon bees break the cells and build new combs instead.

Actually it had been measured full larva weights, and variation is big even cells are same.

.

 

[clv101]

If natural comb is so great, why have most feral colonies died out?

Is there a good study on the decline of natural colonies? It's something I've heard a lot since I started beekeeping - but I've never actually seen numbers.

I'd be interested to know what proportion of honey bee colonies are wild compared to the total number.

 

[Finman]

.
It is impossible to calculate wild colonies because se nursed hives produce all the time swarms and so do wild colones.

 

[Tom Bick]

Not only side by side extra warmth but also back to back extra warmth across the midrib, I hadnt thought of that before Tom, thanks.

Drone pupa are often thrown out when a brood nest has had to contract in a cold spell, so I imagine they need just as much warmth as workers ( certainly if they are to develop into fully functional, vigarous drones)

Yes that’s right and also at other times.

 

[Tom Bick]

This year I plan on shook swarming my hive into a foundationless 14x12 brood and just let them get on with it to see how they do, they probably know best anyway what they like to live in.

As supers contain no brood and require extracting, I will keep them on wired foundation for quick drawing and strength in the extractor.

there's a very interesting foundationless frame design which is basically a plywood sheet with a wiggly hole cut out in the centre, giving the bees somewhere firm to anchor the comb to, might give that a try just to see how and if it works.


Experimentations the name of the game.

Yes give it a go its not for every one but very rewarding.

Remember to wire the frames say three horizontal wires on a 14x12 should be ok but four will be great. Also best to give them a 25mm starter strip just pull the wire from a sheet and then cut into strips you can then clamp it into the top rail, no problem if its in pieces or if its not the full width.

Try the plywood frame its up to you but bees will attach comb to what ever is presented to them so nothing new or great in my opinion to the new ply frame.

Good luck

 

[Tom Bick]

Just measured three separate brood combs. Average measurement: 5.3mms

Only had one comb available but had an average of 5.4mm

 

[For want of a better word]

Is there a good study on the decline of natural colonies? It's something I've heard a lot since I started beekeeping - but I've never actually seen numbers.

I'd be interested to know what proportion of honey bee colonies are wild compared to the total number.

can not say from where as yet.... 0, zero, nil, none.... not in mainland UK !

 

[Madge]

A question about heater bees...
I had it explained to me last year that heater bees are specially adapted to fit into special empty cells often located over the wires in wired brood foundation as the wires transfer heat more efficiently across the comb. ...

There are lots of empty cells over the wires and the heater bees probably use them, but I don't know if the wires contribute to the heating effort. Tautz didn't mention anything about that as far as I can remember.

 

[sunhivebee]

There are lots of empty cells over the wires and the heater bees probably use them, but I don't know if the wires contribute to the heating effort. Tautz didn't mention anything about that as far as I can remember.

As far as I am aware Tautz did not use wird comb, and even if he had, I doubt whether any correlation between wires and heater bee locations would have escaped him. I think he is extremely thorough.

Cell sizes: I have measured cell sizes in seven brood combs from different colonies: they vary (on the same comb) between 4,9 and and 5,1.

All colonies construct their own comb, in all hive systems I use. I do not use starter strips, but the profiles of bars/frames used in frame hives are profiled, ending in a kind of point. Mostly works.

I have heard that varroa prefer larger cells. But my main reason for not using foundation relate to the acaride/other chemicals load in foundation. I read here on another thread that organic foundation is available somewhere, if people want it. Personally I see no point in it, as the bees build their comb extremely competently and to smaller sizes than what is pre-formed. I am quite happy with that.

 

[IGPebble]

Yes give it a go its not for every one but very rewarding.

Remember to wire the frames say three horizontal wires on a 14x12 should be ok but four will be great. Also best to give them a 25mm starter strip just pull the wire from a sheet and then cut into strips you can then clamp it into the top rail, no problem if its in pieces or if its not the full width.

Try the plywood frame its up to you but bees will attach comb to what ever is presented to them so nothing new or great in my opinion to the new ply frame.

Good luck

Is wire specifically needed? Surely the comb is stable with correct manipulation? even during hot weather.

 

[Finman]

.
What is wrong with artificial combs?

- a beekeeper gets much more honey when he recycles beewax.
Wrong is that that he gets more money and frames are in better condition

when a man uses foundation, as a human he is bad and cruel.

 

[Tom Bick]

Is wire specifically needed? Surely the comb is stable with correct manipulation? even during hot weather.

Yes you are right but you will also have to be very very careful and hold the frame vertical all the time and I bet a slight wobble on a large piece of comb on a warm day in a 14x12 frame could cause a problem.

The bees will attach the comb to the side bars and this will help but if like my bees this will only be approximately half way down, the rest of the comb will be unattached apart from the odd bit of brace comb, they will fill in the whole frame if pushed on space but mostly they prefer not to. I prefer to study my frames and I need to twist turn and invert the frames so the wire is a must for me my TBH is another thing altogether but rewarding all the same.

ps when your bees are ready to swarm they love hiding queen cells down the edge and along the bottom of the unattached combs but tend to almost mould them into the comb and can be less obvious than queen cells in hives of foundation.

 

[GeekBeek]

Ok Im going to throw another complete spanner in the works here and say that the Lusby's work wasn't about artificially shrinking the bees, it was about finding a cell size closer to your particular bees natural cell size. Every race of bees are different sizes. I posted the original question as small cell doesn't appear to increase varroa resistance (or what ever you want to call it) but a smaller bee does seem to be more resilient against varroa. Possibly why the Asian honey bee can cope, for what ever mechanism. I pose the question, what ever the race of bee you keep, if they are small, would or do they cope better with varroa?? If you have noticed a size difference between your colonies have you noticed any other differences between the naturally smaller bees and the naturally larger?

 

[For want of a better word]

AMMs are naturally larger... and have shown varroa / disease resistance.. in fact AMMs are one of the largest bees kept.
Would go out and open up a hive and do a bit of pitch/cell size measuring... but too cold!

Grandfathers old foundation press for supers was in drone size?

 

[Madge]

... I posted the original question as small cell doesn't appear to increase varroa resistance (or what ever you want to call it) but a smaller bee does seem to be more resilient ...

Apis Mellifera Cerana are smaller than Western honey bees, but I don't think it is their size that is of significance in their defence against Varroa, but rather their long shared history together which means that Cerana have developed cleaning behaviour to rid themselves of the mites. I think I've also read that their brood period is shorter than Western honey bees which helps to keep the Varroa mite in check - but I can't find anything about that right now.
Kitta