Anybody using natural drawn comb??

[drumgerry]

Just the one flaw in the OP, but a BIG one. It is certainly NOT completely naturally drawn comb.

Why? Because the pitch has been ARTIFICIALLY set.
RAB

Not sure how you get to "the pitch has been artificially set" when we're talking about naturally drawn comb - ie comb drawn by the bees with a starter strip or in foundationless frames.

 

[mbc]

Hi Polyanwood,
I am possibly wrong here, but I thought the bee was fed/grew to the size of the cell? That's why one gets mini drones sometimes when a drone has been raised in a worker cell?

Quite right, you're wrong !

 

[mbc]

Perhaps polyandwood if you go along with the heater bee theory or not but the hives will have something like 20-25% drone comb that will require heating, or can they develop on a cooler temp? Drone comb is disbursed through out the hive and I have not noticed any pattern to it as yet apart than it does tend to be away from the centre of the hive.

Not only side by side extra warmth but also back to back extra warmth across the midrib, I hadnt thought of that before Tom, thanks.

Drone pupa are often thrown out when a brood nest has had to contract in a cold spell, so I imagine they need just as much warmth as workers ( certainly if they are to develop into fully functional, vigarous drones)

 

[oliver90owner]

Not sure how you get to "the pitch has been artificially set"

Some just don't understand what is 'completely natural' means and what is set by the beekeeper (so not entirely natrural)

 

[mbc]

Not sure how you get to "the pitch has been artificially set"

Is it the starter strip that artificially sets the pitch, the box the bees are in or something else ?
Would the willow laths across the top of a skep be artificially setting the pitch in your opinion ? ( and why does it matter ?).
Bees already unnaturally forced to be larger than their natural size ?
Foreign genetics artificially changing the set of the pitch ?
Humans changing the landscape the bees have to live in ?

It could be a number of things, what is it that makes you think "the pitch has been artificially set" ?

 

[drumgerry]

Not sure how you get to "the pitch has been artificially set"

And what you're saying is that in a foundationless frame the pitch of the cells has been artificially set? That simply defies logic. And from my personal experience bees create a range of cell sizes in the comb they draw when given a starter strip. So again your "artificially set" premise doesn't hold water. Perhaps your experience of foundationless frames and combs drawn from starter strips is different - if so let's hear it. Instead of the arch, sarcastic asides let's actually hear something of substance from you.

 

[Finman]

.
This discussion is interesting to see, how much each guy understand bee life.
Text is very emotional and facts are missing.

Time to ventilate feelings. Don't stir the surface of pond.

.

 

[oliver90owner]

And what you're saying is that in a foundationless frame the pitch of the cells has been artificially set?

Clearly not. Needs some deeper thought than that.

 

[drumgerry]

Interested to hear what facts are missing Finman.

And Rab - obviously working within the scenario of moveable framed hives we're in a non-natural situation. But I thought we were talking about what the bees do to create their comb when given frames with starter strips or in foundationless frames

 

[Finman]

Do you you that bees get any benefit in terms of energy conservation from smaller cells?

I guess that it might be easier for the heater bees to keep each pupa warm if it is snuggly housed in the cell, rather than has 'spare' room? If this is true, then natural (smaller cell) comb would be especially beneficial in colder climates.

in Russian Siberia official foundation size is 5,6 mm.

Carniolan has biggest naturall cell size.

I have measured my wild combs and size has been 5,3 and it is quite common.

Why use foundations? Langstroth box has 1000 g foundation wax and it is equal 8 kg honey
the price of foundation from own wax is 3 pound a kilo.
As honey 8 kg is 8x5 pound = 40 pound. As comb wax cost is 3 pound. marginal is 37 pound.

.cost of natural combs is 37 pound / box. if you bye foundations, it is 11 pound.

Big hive has 5 boxes combs and every year I renew about 2 boxes per hive.
A part becomes old and a lot will be lost as break down, moulded, in sick hives etc.

. It a big loss in honey yield if I use foundationless frames.

.

 

[IGPebble]

This year I plan on shook swarming my hive into a foundationless 14x12 brood and just let them get on with it to see how they do, they probably know best anyway what they like to live in.

As supers contain no brood and require extracting, I will keep them on wired foundation for quick drawing and strength in the extractor.

there's a very interesting foundationless frame design which is basically a plywood sheet with a wiggly hole cut out in the centre, giving the bees somewhere firm to anchor the comb to, might give that a try just to see how and if it works.


Experimentations the name of the game.

 

[drumgerry]

in Russian Siberia official foundation size is 5,6 mm.

Carniolan has biggest naturall cell size.

I have measured my wild combs and size has been 5,3 and it is quite common.

I think I already referred to larger rather than smaller being a cold weather adaptation.

And Rab - still waiting for that substance.

 

[Finman]

I think I already referred to larger rather than smaller being a cold weather adaptation.

.

yes but our bees are almost same population from Italy to Polar Circle.
Cell size is not a feature when guys breed their bees.

Italian and Carniolan are the most popular bee races in Europe and surely they have not adapted their cell size to climate when they are carried with aero plane.

 

[drumgerry]

I never said that races of bee adapt their cell size when moved by us about the planet. What I did refer to was Ruttner's description of AMM as a bee with "among the largest [body size] and definitely the broadest of all known sub-species of A. Mellifera". And my point was that "regressing" these bees a la Dee Lusby etc would not be a progressive step. More realistic for those seeking to allow the bees to utilise comb more akin to that used in nature would be to use foundationless frames or frames with starter strips

 

[madasafish]

Just measured three separate brood combs. Average measurement: 5.3mms

 

[Travelator]

I wonder if o9o was alluding to the fact that the distance between adjacent combs is artificially set (by hoffman frames or "metal ends")? If so, would have been more helpful just to say as much!

AFAIK, spacing between combs is set by the beekeeper in all Warre and TBH designs, meaning that skeppists are in fact the only natural beekeepers.

 

[madasafish]

AFAIK, spacing between combs is set by the beekeeper in all Warre and TBH designs, meaning that skeppists are in fact the only natural beekeepers.

?

Since I start with empty topbars, how can I set the comb spacing? By telepathy?

 

[Robbie & Jans Bees]

Don't know if this helps I ran out of Brood frams last year and put 2 super frames in brood box within 2/3 days my girls built coombe all the way down to the same as my other brood frames but the cells were much deeper then the wire frames? Robbie

 

[madasafish]

Don't know if this helps I ran out of Brood frams last year and put 2 super frames in brood box within 2/3 days my girls built coombe all the way down to the same as my other brood frames but the cells were much deeper then the wire frames? Robbie

I have some top bar combs MUCH wider than others - honey storage I think...(at the top)

 

[Travelator]

?

Since I start with empty topbars, how can I set the comb spacing? By telepathy?

Width of the topbars dictates the spacing between midribs of combs, surely?
(I know this whole discussion is actually supposed to be about cell pitch, I only introduced the spacing between combs because I was trying to make sense of o9o's gnomic utterances. Sorry!)