Amm / Native Black Bee Discussion

Hello,
For those interested in Amm / Native Black Bees. Tell us about your bees, queen rearing groups, successes and failures.
Please feel free to post your experiences, observations, or questions regarding the above.

 

[Wilco]

I'm not sure how to respond to that, except mathematics isn't your thing is it?

I think @Boston Bees was suggesting that if a colony swarms more than once in a year and 55% of swarms die, there could still be net gain across the population.

E.g. Colony + prime swarm + 2 cast swarms = 4 colonies (or 3 if only counting swarms).
Even if 55% of those die, that's still 1.8 colonies (or 1.35 if only counting swarms, plus original colony). Obviously doesn't make sense with small numbers but across the entire population this theoretically should lead to increase as R>1.

Caveat: I've not looked at the nuance of that 55% figure so I could still be wrong.

 

[Apiarist]

I don't believe I'm doing this;
100 goes into the winter, 45 come out (the research showed a 55% death rate)
All 45 swarm, (we will ASSUME that all the virgins left behind successfully mate, yeah right, and all the swarms find a hive large enough to store enough stores to survive the winter, yeah right!).

So that's 90 going into the next winter (45 old + 45 new)

90 is less than 100, that's a terminal decline, birth rate is less than death rate, use whatever wording you want.

[From what we have observed here in Northern Ireland, hives which produce a cast swarm, significantly reduce their over wintering survival and cast swarms themselves (we have observed) are noticeably smaller (compared to prime swarms), which also have a reduced over wintering survival; SO from what I have seen overly swarmy bees, meaning more than one swarm per season, reduce their chances of overwintering, I'm basing this on what has been observed here in Ireland.]

I am not taking into consideration that after 3 years the queens will be superseded, with the possible mating failures that that entails. Once every three years is 33%, with a 10% mating failure rate that's an additional 3.3% death rate (yes I know there are numerous views on supersedure but from our observations they are, lets put this mildly, not always successful).

ALSO I am not taking into consideration that it appears from anecdotal observation that a hives lifespan (due to build up of disease etc. in the comb) appears to be about 7 years, that's another additional 14.3% colony failure rate, on average per year. Are you adding all these number up, we were over 50% at the start and we're still at over 50%.

Bottom line - they all were dead in four years. Other research showed one of them stretch their hives lifespan out to seven years in southern France.

 

[Boston Bees]

I don't believe I'm doing this;
100 goes into the winter, 45 come out (the research showed a 55% death rate)
All 45 swarm, (we will ASSUME that all the virgins left behind successfully mate, yeah right, and all the swarms find a hive large enough to store enough stores to survive the winter, yeah right!).

So that's 90 going into the next winter (45 old + 45 new)

90 is less than 100, that's a terminal decline, birth rate is less than death rate, use whatever wording you want.

[From what we have observed here in Northern Ireland, hives which produce a cast swarm, significantly reduce their over wintering survival and cast swarms themselves (we have observed) are noticeably smaller (compared to prime swarms), which also have a reduced over wintering survival; SO from what I have seen overly swarmy bees, meaning more than one swarm per season, reduce their chances of overwintering, I'm basing this on what has been observed here in Ireland.]

I am not taking into consideration that after 3 years the queens will be superseded, with the possible mating failures that that entails. Once every three years is 33%, with a 10% mating failure rate that's an additional 3.3% death rate (yes I know there are numerous views on supersedure but from our observations they are, lets put this mildly, not always successful).

ALSO I am not taking into consideration that it appears from anecdotal observation that a hives lifespan (due to build up of disease etc. in the comb) appears to be about 7 years, that's another additional 14.3% colony failure rate, on average per year. Are you adding all these number up, we were over 50% at the start and we're still at over 50%.

Bottom line - they all were dead in four years. Other research showed one of them stretch their hives lifespan out to seven years in southern France.

Sorry, I didn't mean for you to stay up so late over this!

You are taking the 55% figure (one figure, in one study) far too seriously. It's just one study. Another study might have found 45%, or 30% mortality. You can't pick one figure from a study and determine with certainty that it means that bees would all die out in the wild, even if your understanding of the figure is right, which I believe it isn't

(For one thing, I am not sure you can take an overall mortality rate (55%) and then add on to it some of the underlying causes of the mortality such as supersedure and colony failure - that's double counting)

We can pick numbers and throw them at each other all day, but it won't prove anything. I could say that wild colonies swarm 4 times per year, suffer a 75% mortality rate, and still increase in overall numbers by 25% per year (which would be perfectly mathematically sound), but it would be no more meaningful than your figures.

The point is this - bees in the wild produce lots of swarms (largely because they live in smaller cavities than we give them), and, because swarms have something like a 75% mortality rate, and wild bees aren't fed or treated for varroa, the overall mortality rate in the wild is thus very high. But the overall population can in theory still be maintained, because of all those swarms.

The truth is that no-one knows what the real figures are, because no-one can monitor all the wild colonies, and the swarms resulting from them, properly. We know that Seeley, in the Arnott forest, found about the same number of wild colonies living, 20 years or something after he first counted them. But they were living in completely different nest sites. That's just one study - who knows. But what you definitely can't do is select a 55% figure from one study and say "this proves that wild bees must die out".

 

[mbc]

If wild colonies swarm at least once per year (which seems an underestimate, if anything), then a 55% death rate would imply more like a stable population, than a collapsing population, wouldn't it?

Indeed, anything less than a 50% death rate would lead to there being wall to wall honeybees quite quickly, no?

We know from Seeley's work, and others, that the life of honeybees in wild settings (whether they are escapees from managed hives or not) is characterised by small nests (dictated by small cavities), thus high swarming rates, and thus high mortality rates.

How much of Seeley's work was based on Amm?
A rhetorical question as, as with most bee research, the answer is none.
This is quite exciting as it opens up the possibility of going over some of the same ground with a different subspecies and getting entirely new sets of data and conclusions.
I remember reading Larry Connors excellent books, bee sex essentials and increase essentials (both lent out, could do with them back to have a reread) and thinking certain presumptions didn't chime with my experiences working with native bees in a different climate.
The most obvious difference is the absolute confidence new world authors write that queens will get mated in a fortnight with sealed brood to check in the vast majority of cases in three weeks. Anyone who's waited on batches of virgins to get mated in a welsh "summer" will immediately know that this is nonsense it's so way off.

 

[Lislarybees]

I don't understand why you say this?
Here is a direct quote from the research paper that you linked to, "The progeny of AMM queens was fathered almost exclusively by AMM drones", this means that the "conservation of Amm is" a downhill stroll, not "an uphill struggle"; those beeks that want to keep Amm's just need to queen their hives initially with Amm Queens, and their Virgins (according to the Research you have referred to) will essentially only mate with Amm Drones, there was Research done in Ireland in 2017 (made public in 2020/21) that has confirmed this, only with Buckfasts and carnica drones.

It is an uphill struggle because a small minority of beekeepers insist on - selfishly in my opinion - importing bees. Despite the risks this poses. How did Varroa reach Ireland or the UK for that matter? It wasn’t someone working with native bees that’s for sure.

 

[Wilco]

It is an uphill struggle because a small minority of beekeepers insist on - selfishly in my opinion - importing bees. Despite the risks this poses. How did Varroa reach Ireland or the UK for that matter? It wasn’t someone working with native bees that’s for sure.

So DEFRA reckon around 21k queens last year, for simplicity lets says 22k. Reportedly 220k hives in the UK, so theoretically 1 in 10 hives gets a new queen if we exclude all the wild/feral colonies. This ignores those that aren't accepted and other colony losses. The colonies may not be evenly distributed across the UK and queen imports probably not either (such as bee farmers) so likely some areas are less affected.

Do AMM type queens from Ireland count in the import figures? If so that will count a little against the imported queens diluting AMM genes. Likewise descendants of any dark type queens that are exported to Southern Europe so their progeny can be imported back earlier in the next seasons.

Add in the claim that dark type bees breed selectively with their own types (I guess we all have preferences) and I wonder if @Apiarist has a point that it's not necessarily as bleak as some might make out.

Obviously a lot of this post is conjecture and I could be wrong, but for AMM type bees to be present and breeding true, like some posters on here are claiming, after around 100 years of us importing queens and over half a century of intensively massacring nature, something doesn't entirely fit with the 'uphill struggle', to my mind at least.

 

[madasafish]

All the above arithmetic is wrong.

Seeley observed less than 10% of all swarms in the wild survived the first winter.
So there!

 

[Apiarist]

(For one thing, I am not sure you can take an overall mortality rate (55%) and then add on to it some of the underlying causes of the mortality such as supersedure and colony failure - that's double counting)

I wasn't double counting: the study (as I mentioned at the end of my Post) lasted only into the fourth year as all the bees died. Meaning that the full effects of Hive failure due to old comb, etc. and Colony failure due to failed supersedure mating, etc. were not fully taken into consideration, therefore if the study had been able to be conducted longer and larger these could have been accounted for. Another annoying thing about these types of studies is that they don't genetically test the mtDNA of the colony each year, they just assume that the bees they see each summer are direct descendants of the previous generation, if they did they would likely find a proportion were new mtDNA, likely meaning the old colony had died out and a new colony (different mtDNA) had re-occupied the hive.... do I have to add that this means the annual death rate in the Irish study has most likely been under-estimated?

We can pick numbers and throw them at each other all day, but it won't prove anything.

To that I have no response.... those that understand mathematics (oh the irony of using computers and I am saying this) will understand what I mean and why I am not responding to... "(numbers) won't prove anything"!

 

[Boston Bees]

To that I have no response....

Fair enough, we'll leave it at that then and agree to disagree.

 

[Apiarist]

It is an uphill struggle because a small minority of beekeepers insist on - selfishly in my opinion - importing bees. Despite the risks this poses. How did Varroa reach Ireland or the UK for that matter? It wasn’t someone working with native bees that’s for sure.

I think I understand you now, your objection to the importation of bees into Ireland isn't that they will hybridize, evidence is increasingly saying they will not, but your concern of the importation of new diseases and pests, fair enough argument. But I think you are the only person that I know here in Ireland that has taken that position.

 

[E&MBees]

Had a little look through the poly crown board of this colony today. They are going great guns. Hoping to rear a queen from them. They have been frugal with stores over the winter. Very calm and gentle.
Really pleased with their progress.

 

[Lislarybees]

How do you know that the outside apiary bee colonies are "wild"? The research from Ireland (you have given a link to a lecture which summarizes the Research) shows that their annual average death rate is close to 55% (you need to get a calculator and number crunch the Supplementary Stats.).
Surely a 55% death rate per year means that there are only bees outside apiaries because of escapees from apiaries, if there were no escaped swarms from apiaries then this "wild" population would die out! Which means they're not wild only feral.

Also you said "beekeepers being able to keep their bees treatment free", how do you know that isn't just luck? I've spoken to beeks from Co. Donegal that tell me it took over 20 years for Varroa to arrive with them. I also know of other beeks that are in very isolated places in Scotland, meaning that there is no way for Varroa to migrate towards them, meaning after a treatment several years ago they haven't needed to treat again .... NOT because their bees are Varroa Resistant but because they haven't been re-infested with the mites!

I'm not trying to annoy you in any way, I just want to understand what you are saying.

Have you seen research that isn't yet published, or have these beeks that don't treat had their bees tested to see if they are Varroa Resistant instead of just lucky?

I want to believe...
that there are Wild Colonies and therefore Varroa Resistant (or at the very least Tolerant) Bees in Ireland, BUT every time I hear someone or some-group make these claims, I read the Research (being cited) or contact the individual(s) to ask for additional information (like I am now doing with you - I do this with everyone) and to date not one person has been able to substantiate their claims.

https://hdwallsbox.com/wallpapers/l...xt-bees-i-want-to-believe-1920x1080-73373.jpg

I’m really sorry your arguments make no sense. So someone who has been treatment free for 25 years has been ‘lucky’? Here is an interesting paper based on experiences with treatment free here in Ireland - are all these beekeepers in Louth just lucky? https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/0005772X.2018.1431000

 

[Swarm]

Had a little look through the poly crown board of this colony today. They are going great guns. Hoping to rear a queen from them. They have been frugal with stores over the winter. Very calm and gentle.
Really pleased with their progress.

Wow!!
That's a strong, healthy colony, a credit to the beekeeper.

 

[Lislarybees]

Just a suggestion but is it possible to have two Amm blogs? One for discussion of our beekeeping experiences through the year - where advice and mutual support can be given and another for more contentious discussions. Feels like there is two very different threads of conversation going on currently and it would be nice to keep them separate.

 

[Lislarybees]

I think I understand you now, your objection to the importation of bees into Ireland isn't that they will hybridize, evidence is increasingly saying they will not, but your concern of the importation of new diseases and pests, fair enough argument. But I think you are the only person that I know here in Ireland that has taken that position.

No - you are just choosing to mis-interpret what I am saying or at best being very selective. A study in Poland has suggested that Amm show some traits for self-selection even when they are in close proximity to colonies of Carniolan bees. That trait clearly does not work 100% - other wise you would still have a much healthier population of pure Amm in the UK. In Ireland I can see from lived experience that this trait is not 100% effective - just within the last couple of years a Buckfast breeder moved into one of Irelands longest running Voluntary Areas of Conservation for Amm and the result has been cross breeding. This VCA preserves some of the most important genetics within the Irish population of Amm. And that same scenario can be seen repeated in many locations.

If that is not reason enough to stop imports I don't know what is but if you are looking for more reasons then as i said above - the prevention of further disease or parasite threats is a very good one.

 

[Swarm]

Just a suggestion but is it possible to have two Amm blogs? One for discussion of our beekeeping experiences through the year - where advice and mutual support can be given and another for more contentious discussions. Feels like there is two very different threads of conversation going on currently and it would be nice to keep them separate.

I started this blog for those who are interested in Amm/Native bees as you outlined. Nowt wrong with a bit of discussion or difference of opinion if we can all remain polite but I doubt that would be the case with a thread created to discuss contentious issues?
I realise it can become quite disjointed but it's all in one place, some contentious issues arise from comments made here, which would mean moving them.

I'm keen to hear the honest experiences of others, learn how things are in other areas. I like the idea of VCA's and would like to hear from anyone at Lleyn&Eifionydd, where many are also treatment free.

You are quite right about 100% mating certainty and it may or may not be the case that Amm virgins are picky but if there is limited or no other choice, I think I would confidently say she will make do. The higher percentages are in areas with a large or predominant native population. These pockets can be very small indeed due to factors like topography. I mentioned before, my friend has a very good mating apiary at the top of the valley but a few miles further south and his results have become very mixed in the last few seasons. In similar circumstances with mating nucs at the top of a small valley, I abandoned both sites as an allotment society near my drone producers brought in eight hives.
I'd like a VCA in my location.

 

[Beesnaturally]

*************

 

[Beesnaturally]

*******

 

[Boston Bees]

Sorry. Is there a delete button?

No. Most people just replace their mistaken post with "****" or "posted in error"

 

[Lislarybees]

I started this blog for those who are interested in Amm/Native bees as you outlined. Nowt wrong with a bit of discussion or difference of opinion if we can all remain polite but I doubt that would be the case with a thread created to discuss contentious issues?
I realise it can become quite disjointed but it's all in one place, some contentious issues arise from comments made here, which would mean moving them.

I'm keen to hear the honest experiences of others, learn how things are in other areas. I like the idea of VCA's and would like to hear from anyone at Lleyn&Eifionydd, where many are also treatment free.

You are quite right about 100% mating certainty and it may or may not be the case that Amm virgins are picky but if there is limited or no other choice, I think I would confidently say she will make do. The higher percentages are in areas with a large or predominant native population. These pockets can be very small indeed due to factors like topography. I mentioned before, my friend has a very good mating apiary at the top of the valley but a few miles further south and his results have become very mixed in the last few seasons. In similar circumstances with mating nucs at the top of a small valley, I abandoned both sites as an allotment society near my drone producers brought in eight hives.
I'd like a VCA in my location.

That’s fair enough - so far it’s all been good natured and healthy debate.
I was just reading about the Lleyn and Eifionydd association. 500 hives Treatment free. That’s fantastic.
I would also like a VCA where I live. Currently working on it