Amm / Native Black Bee Discussion

Hello,
For those interested in Amm / Native Black Bees. Tell us about your bees, queen rearing groups, successes and failures.
Please feel free to post your experiences, observations, or questions regarding the above.

 

[Apiarist]

But in any context where a local feral population is, or might, or could, be a venue for natural selection to play out...

"feral" means escaped from apiaries, which research on the continent shows has a 44% death rate per year, 55% here in Ireland; so they're not going to be around long enough...
"natural selection" that would require no beekeepers, ... refer above.

 

[Beesnaturally]

"feral" means escaped from apiaries, which research on the continent shows has a 44% death rate per year, 55% here in Ireland; so they're not going to be around long enough...
"natural selection" that would require no beekeepers, ... refer above.

Ok, so what do we call bees that live wild, and are genetically mongrels originating mostly in beekeepers' stock?

Not all such bees follow those averages. Some, we know from research in a number of countries, become established.

And we also need comparative figures: how long do colonies tend to survive anyway? Seeley thinks bees don't systematically tear down and replace comb, and it's knackered after 5 years or so, meaning even a smoothly succeeding colony has to keep home-hopping.

Natural selection will take place to some extent wherever bees exist in the wild. The greater the proportion of wild/feral colonies (we haven't decided what to call them yet) against apiary bees, the more natural selection will be present. The more the proportion lies the other way, the less natural selection will be occurring, not least because the apiary bees will be sending treatment-dependent genes into the untreated wild/feral colonies - with fatal results.

That's how it cashes out to me.

 

[mbc]

Ok, so what do we call bees that live wild, and are genetically mongrels originating mostly in beekeepers' stock?

Not all such bees follow those averages. Some, we know from research in a number of countries, become established.

And we also need comparative figures: how long do colonies tend to survive anyway? Seeley thinks bees don't systematically tear down and replace comb, and it's knackered after 5 years or so, meaning even a smoothly succeeding colony has to keep home-hopping.

Natural selection will take place to some extent wherever bees exist in the wild. The greater the proportion of wild/feral colonies (we haven't decided what to call them yet) against apiary bees, the more natural selection will be present. The more the proportion lies the other way, the less natural selection will be occurring, not least because the apiary bees will be sending treatment-dependent genes into the untreated wild/feral colonies - with fatal results.

That's how it cashes out to me.

"Home hopping"?!!
Your lack of comprehension and dogmatic preconceptions hop over to mess up another thread, oh dear!

 

[Erichalfbee]

"Home hopping"?!!
Your lack of comprehension and dogmatic preconceptions hop over to mess up another thread, oh dear!

Not really. This is swarm’s blog. I’m sure he’ll sort it.

 

[elainemary]

I've had 4 of Jon's 1 superseded 1 is very chalky and the other two are wintering well, first inspection one has 6 frames of solid brood the other a little more, these two have been frugal and have had 4litres of 2:1 in the autumn along side the ivy.
Chalky queen has 3/4 frames of brood and will be requeened ASAP with one of my wintering mini nuc queen's.
All jgs quuens were introduced in July 21

Mark, can you put some numbers on ‘frugal’? Approx what weight of winter stores do your black bees consume? Would be interested in hearing from others too with dark bees

 

[Swarm]

Mark, can you put some numbers on ‘frugal’? Approx what weight of winter stores do your black bees consume? Would be interested in hearing from others too with dark bees

Hi Elaine,
Perhaps a bit too early to give conclusive figures as his queens were introduced in July 2021, one Winter (if we can call it that)
I'm the wrong person to ask as I've never weighed my hives, only hefted.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Hi Elaine,
Perhaps a bit too early to give conclusive figures as his queens were introduced in July 2021, one Winter (if we can call it that)
I'm the wrong person to ask as I've never weighed my hives, only hefted.

Aye Steve's right the colonys in my earlier post couldnt be classed as old enough and Ive missed a few weighings anyway.
But by looking at the frames they have loads left.
Older colonys from the season before in single/double brood will get there final weighing this week if I'm not in hospital having a baby!
I started weighing them April 21st 2021 when they were in nucs and have kept records of growth/weight since on 22 nucs.
Just have to find time now to sort it all out.

 

[Swarm]

Jon Getty & Northumberland Honey. Had to delay them from last year when it all went pear shaped. Would like to try one of Ceri’s too.

Yes, you are super organised this year, well done. We already discussed Jon's queens when you made your decision, I've not had problematic chalk brood with any over a number of years, my friend has found the same. Did I send you a video inspecting one of his colonies, 2019 JG? If not, I will send it on, you will have a good idea of the nature of these bees and the healthy brood patterns, along with OMF clean as a whistle.
Temperament wise, they have all been very good and some have been faultless, the 2019 queen is one such example and we raised queens from her last year, I have two up the farm.
I would advise anyone to try queens from Ceri (think of the Carlsberg advert) never had a bad one of these either. Sadly, I lost one last year and that really was a blow as her bees were the gentlest bees I've ever seen, everyone who saw this colony said the same. A local beekeeper has a couple that sound very similar, they just sit there on the combs.
Stunning examples of what can be achieved working with native bees, definitely consider them.
I've heard some good reports about Northumberland black queens but not seen or had any experience of them myself, it will be interesting to hear how they do.
Are you putting them in that gorgeous new site? The others looked very happy.
Feel free to post a photo and make us all jealous.

 

[Martin Bee]

I am thinking of improving the gene pool of my dark bees by getting an unmated black queen from Scotland and trying to turn her into a drone queen to improve the chances of mating my queens with dark drones rather than local mongrels.
Any advice as I wood be doing this in a double nuc with a QE so I can add worker brood in the top to keep things going.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I am thinking of improving the gene pool of my dark bees by getting an unmated black queen from Scotland and trying to turn her into a drone queen to improve the chances of mating my queens with dark drones rather than local mongrels.
Any advice as I wood be doing this in a double nuc with a QE so I can add worker brood in the top to keep things going.

Wouldn’t a mated queen and the odd frame of drone work better? You’d have the best of both worlds.

 

[Swarm]

I am thinking of improving the gene pool of my dark bees by getting an unmated black queen from Scotland and trying to turn her into a drone queen to improve the chances of mating my queens with dark drones rather than local mongrels.
Any advice as I wood be doing this in a double nuc with a QE so I can add worker brood in the top to keep things going.

Hi Martin,
Do you know any beekeepers near you? Working with like minded beekeepers will make things much easier as you will have greater resources, it's also very rewarding too. Chap near me is eighty and gone from finding it hard to planning some queen rearing this year, it's great. Your best drones are those from your best queens/colonies and they will be the healthy, happy ones.

 

[Martin Bee]

Yes Steve there are beekeepers in a four mile radius one is commercial and has a number of apiaries but the nearest one about half a mile is a leave alone who just produces swarms. They are all stripy mongrels which doesn't help my darkies.

 

[Swarm]

What bees does the commercial guy keep? Trying to influence the drone population would be difficult if he has a number of apiaries, it stands to reason his drones will be more numerous. Let's say he is mainly at the north of a four mile radius, the southern most point may be a better option for, say, mating queens.
As an example, my friend lives near the top of a valley, he has an apiary there and another a few miles south. Very good results at home but further down the valley they began to deteriorate, we decided last year that it was no longer a viable mating site.
It is very difficult, I understand. Try a call out to your local association for others?

 

[Beesnaturally]

"Home hopping"?!!
Your lack of comprehension and dogmatic preconceptions hop over to mess up another thread, oh dear!

Of course you are wrong about dogma and lack of comprehension, but I understand you feel that way. I hadn't realised this was a blog, and and if blogs operate by different rules I'm happy to leave it there.

 

[Swarm]

It's ok Beesnaturally it's aimed at those interested in Amm/native bees. Wild colonies are something I remember finding as a young boy, were these escapees from an apiary? Who knows, we found them living in trees or other cavities, they were wild bees to us.
I think quite a few beekeepers would agree that bees are essentially still wild I don't know any who look upon their charges as domesticated. If they are wild creatures, they are wild IMO, to me feral means domesticated now living in the wild.
Free spirits is probably a better description, IMO. They do what they want and the best we can do is work with it.

 

[Lislarybees]

Thanks, it was all going well, I have everything organised and ready and now a fresh bunch of problems to deal with. I'm hoping it's not going to mean playing catch up later on.
It's shaping up a bit like a repeat of last year with a sunny end of March followed by low temps in April. We had charged cells in one colony on April 27th. How many brood combs do yours have? I've a few that over wintered in single boxes, they could do with some extra space if I'm honest and the double nucs definitely need space. One hive still has a nadir, the brood box began to fall apart when it went under so it was gaffer taped safe with the plan for a shift to a new hive and remove the nadir this Spring. One of our yellow line queens, they build quite fast so had hoped to sort the mess when they were smaller, just have to be extra careful I suppose.

Hi Swarm - I over winter bigger colonies in double Rose boxes which are the equivalent of a medium national I think. Looking at colonies in this setup they are averaging 5 frames of brood. Smaller colonies I just keep in the single Rose and this year they are averaging 3 frames of brood right now. I am in a pretty exposed spot at my home apiary so things build up fairly slowly.

What are the origins of your yellow line queens?

 

[Wilco]

Hi Swarm - I over winter bigger colonies in double Rose boxes which are the equivalent of a medium national I think. Looking at colonies in this setup they are averaging 5 frames of brood. Smaller colonies I just keep in the single Rose and this year they are averaging 3 frames of brood right now. I am in a pretty exposed spot at my home apiary so things build up fairly slowly.

What are the origins of your yellow line queens?

Rose OSBs are a little bit shallower than a National deep- I inherited some which now serve as swarm traps!

 

[Lislarybees]

Ok, so what do we call bees that live wild, and are genetically mongrels originating mostly in beekeepers' stock?

Not all such bees follow those averages. Some, we know from research in a number of countries, become established.

And we also need comparative figures: how long do colonies tend to survive anyway? Seeley thinks bees don't systematically tear down and replace comb, and it's knackered after 5 years or so, meaning even a smoothly succeeding colony has to keep home-hopping.

Natural selection will take place to some extent wherever bees exist in the wild. The greater the proportion of wild/feral colonies (we haven't decided what to call them yet) against apiary bees, the more natural selection will be present. The more the proportion lies the other way, the less natural selection will be occurring, not least because the apiary bees will be sending treatment-dependent genes into the untreated wild/feral colonies - with fatal results.

That's how it cashes out to me.

My dream as a beekeeper is to be able to set swarm traps in my local woods and replenish or increase hive numbers from free living colonies of Amm bees. Currently where I live this is not possible due to others keeping invasives but this model where you are interacting regularly with free living bees is sustainable beekeeping as it has been practised since humans first started keeping bees. Luckily I know people who are in this fortunate position and I can source queens from them and swarms I catch at my Mums place (about 50km away) are also most likely free living and Amm.

There is no doubt in my mind that free living colonies of Amm bees here in Ireland have helped drive the adaptation of bees here to living with varroa but there are also a lot of beekeepers who have been treatment free for a long time or indeed have never treated for varroa and their colonies are thriving and that has to have had an impact too.

I get the sense that you think hybridised bees are going to give you a better stab at varroa resistance but I would say keeping good quality Amm will get you there just as fast if not faster - just source them from someone that is already treatment free. Your forum name talks about keeping bees naturally but I don't see how there is anything natural in keeping or working with hybridised bees in a country where there is a native subspecies.

 

[Lislarybees]

My dream as a beekeeper is to be able to set swarm traps in my local woods and replenish or increase hive numbers from free living colonies of Amm bees. Currently where I live this is not possible due to others keeping invasives but this model where you are interacting regularly with free living bees is sustainable beekeeping as it has been practised since humans first started keeping bees. Luckily I know people who are in this fortunate position and I can source queens from them and swarms I catch at my Mums place (about 50km away) are also most likely free living and Amm.

There is no doubt in my mind that free living colonies of Amm bees here in Ireland have helped drive the adaptation of bees here to living with varroa but there are also a lot of beekeepers who have been treatment free for a long time or indeed have never treated for varroa and their colonies are thriving and that has to have had an impact too.

I get the sense that you think hybridised bees are going to give you a better stab at varroa resistance but I would say keeping good quality Amm will get you there just as fast if not faster - just source them from someone that is already treatment free. Your forum name talks about keeping bees naturally but I don't see how there is anything natural in keeping or working with hybridised bees in a country where there is a native subspecies.

I don't mean the questioning of your name as an attack beesnaturally - it is just interesting how we all define things differently.

I know I sent you this link in a private message and maybe I posted this up here before but I think for those that are interested it is well worth a watch.

 

[Lislarybees]

And apologies if i am going on but there are lots of beekeepers in Ireland that treat and it has not stopped wild colonies surviving in the face of varroa or beekeepers being able to keep their bees treatment free