Aggressive Hive

[WingCommander]

Hi there

I started beekeeping last year with one hive and was pleased with myself for successfully performing an artificial swarm a few weeks ago. The old queen is now in an established colony in a new hive (lots of drawn out brood frame with capped brood in, lots of freshly capped honey on new frames) in the old location and the new queen has just hatched (checked today) so so far, so good.

I have a problem however. Since the artificial swarm the new colony (old queen) has become incredibly aggressive. My friend (whose land the hives are on) called me on Monday to say that the bees were bombing him. On inspection today the new colony was very aggressive - lots of bombing and angry bees, in contrast to the utterly chilled out old hive. When I packed up to go I was walking to the car - 20m plus from the hive - when I started getting bombed again by 4 or 5 bees. One managed to sting me on the forearm as well so that just riled them up and I ended up doing a runner!

This colony has always been incredibly docile (my mum (a former beek of 20+ years) said they were the most docile she had ever seen!) and as the queen remains the same I am a bit stumped. Given that my friend works down the field they are in I can't afford for him to be attacked and I wondered what the wise old beekeepers on the web would advise...

 

[acabee]

Welcome wingcommander (nice suit! not seen that one in beekeeping equipment lists.)
I'm neither wise nor old, but you don't mention if you saw old queen during your inspection or if there were 1-3 day eggs in the 'old queen' colony. Are you sure old queen is still in residence?

acabee

 

[WingCommander]

On this inspection I did not see the queen - I was opening up to add some frames to the super and had a quick look downstairs. There was freshly capped brood on frames that were foundation just over a week ago but i didn't see the queen - that said I am pretty rubbish at finding her. I didn't do a full inspection, really just had a look to see how the brood and food supplies were. I suppose it is possible she has gone but there were literally 3 brand new frames of drawn out foundation filled with brood and a brood box and super full of bees.

I suppose I should return for a full inspection as it is possible she has been killed/lost?

Thanks for the note on the suit - my personal impression of a bee - lots of fun in the sky!

 

[acabee]

I think you need to check again re: queen. Have an eye to the weather - thundery days can be more 'interesting' and also if a flow has just ended. So leave till another day if you can?

There's plenty of advice here re: smoking strategies (though some swear by sugar/water sprays) and also temporarily moving brood box hive to get rid of the more aggressive flyers while you have a good look through. But since bees might be less than happy, I'd minimise time and be looking just for 1-3 day old eggs rather than queen.

Also wash (bee) suit? If sting pheromone still present it will only add to the fun.

Worth giving them a second chance before more drastic action such as moving hive.

And talk to your bees as you look in - it can help keep you calm if nothing else.

Good luck.

acabee

 

[WingCommander]

When I was stung I was walking to the car in jeans and a t-shirt - I keep my kit in a poly tunnel in the field where the hives are so I don't think it is the kit.

I will wait until a less humid day and try and have a good look through. My bee buddy may come with me too and see what he thinks.

 

[acabee]

Given your friend's concern and your combined expeirences, I wouldn't wait too long. Many do inspect during lightish rain / cool temps so don't let the forecast this weekend put you off unduly. Just be as quick as you can to minimise risk of chilling of brood.

My thinking in my advice above is that they could well be queenless (for whatever reason).
Others (wiser; older) might have a different, more informed view so I suggest you take their views into account as well.

acabee

 

[WingCommander]

Would being queenless make them aggressive?

They were aggressive on Monday this week and there is definitely newly capped brood since then...

 

[Norton]

Are you a wingsuit flyer or base jumper?

 

[acabee]

Yes, being queenless can make them aggresive. Experienced beeks will tell you a hive can tell within an hour (even less) if the queen is gone. My own experience is that a hive makes a 'roaring' sound when this happens and bees will fly very easily off the combs when inspecting and come up to see if you want to be friends.

Queenlessness is not the only possible explanation (weather; end of flow; disturbance; robbing; a 'fully mature' hive compared to a nuc etc) could be factors too. But bombing at a distance needs sorting...

acabee

 

[Swarm]

Yes, queenless colonies can become quite defensive. You have just experienced what's known as following, another bad trait. Just a tip, find some shade or sheltered place and hang around for a few minutes and they often give up, really miserable bees can follow much further. Make sure they are gone before you remove your veil.

What did you put the queen on? Was it the frame she was on, with no queen cells and all the rest foundation? And how much more than a week ago was that, because I'm thinking egg -3 days, larva -5 days plus the time to draw the frames. You mention capped brood but don't mention eggs or open brood. They sound queenless to me.

 

[oliver90owner]

We are flying without instruments!

Yes they may be Q-. Yes they may have a new queen,

Unless we know the situation in the old queen colony since the A/S times, subsequent inspections after moving. Any indicators should be picked up when checking for further queen cells and so on. The actual dat of The A/s would be good. 'A few weeks ago' is not at all helpful.

 

[WingCommander]

I moved the queen a week last Sunday (12 days ago). I moved the old hive to the side and then new brood box in place. I moved the frame she was on, no queen cells on it, to the new hive along with two frames from the back of the hive that were just honey, no brood and no queen cells.

There is definitely new brood since then but perhaps I caught her last inspection (Sunday) as they have been aggressive since then...

The old colony seems to be doing very well - I inspected again last week and found a queen cell I had missed but both were still sealed so I dispatched the other one.

 

[itma]

I moved the queen a week last Sunday (12 days ago)...
There is definitely new brood since then but perhaps I caught her last inspection (Sunday) as they have been aggressive since then...

If these are your only colonies, you are in a bit of a bind since you can't just move a young-brood frame over as a test for queenlessness frame. (You'd have to scrounge one).

The other thing - also relevant to the test frame - is that you need to be able to tell the age of open brood. If you can see eggs, there was Q there at most 3 days ago. If you can't (but could) distinguish young larvae, then she hasn't been there for a week.
Its not difficult to give a rough estimate of the larva's age - and that's all you need to tell if she has been in action since last weekend.
It is relevant to the test frame because you want a frame with eggs and/or really young (not just open) brood.

Probably best to try and get the promise of a test frame for next weekend, and inspect before collecting it - as it might not be needed.
Recombining around the brood's new queen (once she gets going) would be the minimum action if the evil old queen is still there. You can hope that her daughter might be better! If not, it would definitely be worth investing in a new Q from known-decent stock.

 

[WingCommander]

I'm sorry but my knowledge is failing me. How would a young-brood frame test for queenlessess? I am not au fait with the 'test frame' idea.

Sorry for being dumb - I have had support and read lots but this is new to me...

 

[Swarm]

The bees need eggs or young brood to bring on a queen, the test frame gives them this opportunity.

 

[victor meldrew]

I'm sorry but my knowledge is failing me. How would a young-brood frame test for queenlessess? I am not au fait with the 'test frame' idea.

Sorry for being dumb - I have had support and read lots but this is new to me...

Basically , when a Queenless hive is presented with a frame of eggs/ very young larvae they will immediately draw Queen cells around selected eggs/ larvae !
VM


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[acabee]

As per SWARM, the frame of eggs you put in 'tests' for the prescence of an existing queen. If bees start to build queen cells from those eggs, they are almost certainly queenless.
If queen is still present, then they are unlikely to build queen cells from the test frame eggs.

But as ITMA says, you only need the test frame if you don't see eggs or very young larvae in your next inspection.

In all the above, if I sound like an expert... I'm not. Just passing on what I've learned from others here and my own experience over last few years.

acabee

 

[sunhivebee]

Basically , when a Queenless hive is presented with a frame of eggs/ very young larvae they will immediately draw Queen cells around selected eggs/ larvae !
VM

Victor, would you agree that they may do that, or they may not. It is definitely worth a try, but don't count on success, as success will depend on the reason as well as duration of queenless state. My success rate with such procedure is about 50/50.

 

[WingCommander]

Got you - but as I only have a new queen from the A/S I can't add a test frame.

Going to go back in for a thorough check.

BTW - worst sting reaction I have had since hospitalisation at 18! - I've been checked and not allergic any more and have had minor stings through gloves but my whole forearm is currently 'Popeye'-esque!

 

[victor meldrew]

I would indeed !
The test frame is a tool, usually used when doubt exists as to whether a virgin had been mated post swarming !
It takes approx 80 days between Queenlessness and the onset of laying workers I am led to believe!
VM


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