AFB and saving a queen.

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Some nuts also do shook swarms destroying brood and combs to control varroa, what a waste.

Or just to give then a 'spring kickstart'!

?​

 

[For want of a better word]

What are the chances of cross contamination if i requeened the agressive hive with the AFB queen



Possibly 100%
Torch the colony and save the others
Buy in a nice calm native Irish black Amm for your aggressive colony

( Do not take too much notice of Finski.. he lives on a cloud surrounded by cookooos!)

Nos da

 

[Plenty of honey]

What are the chances of cross contamination if i requeened the agressive hive with the AFB queen



Possibly 100%
Torch the colony and save the others
Buy in a nice calm native Irish black Amm for your aggressive colony

( Do not take too much notice of Finski.. he lives on a cloud surrounded by cookooos!)

Nos da

I received an update from my friend who's affiliated with the "Union National D'Apiculteurs Francais" . (French beekeeping union") They have just modified their original notice from 10 years ago and say now that treating Foul brood diseases, either AMF or EFB with any antibiotics is completely banned, on the grounds that no antibiotics tested, are actually working and treatment, even though it may appear to be working, only masks the underlying problem. More evidence for the hard decision treatment of burn and save others i would agree on !!

My old beekeeping teacher here in France) has told me stories of how he shook swarmed all 9 of his infected hives, in to new hives on new frames and all hives recovered quickly and with increased vigor!! this was some 20 years ago in an infection he got at one of his apiaries.
The thought of you being the "holding" apiary for brood diseases, as they are spread to your neighbours hives, just terrifies me!!
The consequences of major , uncontrolled infection are too much !!

In Jersey, my old Home, they had a huge outbreak some 3 years ago. Their was, some 30 to 40 % infection, if i remember rightly! They have surprisingly recovered well, due to swift action by Agg and Fish and good beekeeping Association with well trained members and help from the uk.
Also i think, partly because they have very few wild swarms of AMM. Something we have lots of here still!! Worrying.

 

[Finman]

.
Plenty of Honey. You take take this issue with emotion. IT is not that bad.

Further more. When you get better queens, you need not treat you EFB hives. Get immune strain.
..
.

 

[Goran]

I received an update from my friend who's affiliated with the "Union National D'Apiculteurs Francais" . (French beekeeping union") They have just modified their original notice from 10 years ago and say now that treating Foul brood diseases, either AMF or EFB with any antibiotics is completely banned, on the grounds that no antibiotics tested, are actually working and treatment, even though it may appear to be working, only masks the underlying problem. More evidence for the hard decision treatment of burn and save others i would agree on !!

My old beekeeping teacher here in France) has told me stories of how he shook swarmed all 9 of his infected hives, in to new hives on new frames and all hives recovered quickly and with increased vigor!! this was some 20 years ago in an infection he got at one of his apiaries.
The thought of you being the "holding" apiary for brood diseases, as they are spread to your neighbours hives, just terrifies me!!
The consequences of major , uncontrolled infection are too much !!

In Jersey, my old Home, they had a huge outbreak some 3 years ago. Their was, some 30 to 40 % infection, if i remember rightly! They have surprisingly recovered well, due to swift action by Agg and Fish and good beekeeping Association with well trained members and help from the uk.
Also i think, partly because they have very few wild swarms of AMM. Something we have lots of here still!! Worrying.

My personal view, I am not the expert:
They don't just mask the problem. In fact when using antibiotics you breed more resistant types of AFB - you become AFB breeder and spreader.
If no reason for saving and possibility to do it properly with shaking ( without any antibiotics) - burn and move on.
At my place were some examples of using antibiotics and bursting infections on whole apiaries from time to time. But beauty is when use it, you don't know which will go first and how many ( whole apiary, whole area or..). It can grow as cascade.. Couple of new beeks I know bought first colonies and pretty soon they find that they bought infected colonies from long time beekeepers ( which tell more about their practice).. That tells more about humans than of AFB..

 

[Finman]

My personal view, I am not the expert:
They don't just mask the problem. In fact when using antibiotics you breed more resistant types of AFB - you become AFB breeder and spreader.
If no reason for saving and possibility to do it properly with shaking ( without any antibiotics) - burn and move on.
At my place were some examples of using antibiotics and bursting infections on whole apiaries from time to time. But beauty is when use it, you don't know which will go first and how many ( whole apiary, whole area or..). It can grow as cascade.. Couple of new beeks I know bought first colonies and pretty soon they find that they bought infected colonies from long time beekeepers ( which tell more about their practice).. That tells more about humans than of AFB..

You are too in panic. You do not know but you have more "information" than a small village. That truly does not help anything.

 

[Finman]

.
From Denmark

http://www.oie.int/fileadmin/Home/fr/Health_standards/tahm/2.02.02_AMERICAN_FOULBROOD.pdf

http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/articles/2003/hansen_1.pdf

http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/phocadownload/BfDJ76 AFB041.pdf

May 2014
OIE Terrestrial Manual 2014 1
AMERICAN FOULBROOD OF HONEY BEES
http://www.oie.int/fileadmin/Home/fr/Health_standards/tahm/2.02.02_AMERICAN_FOULBROOD.pdf

 

[Plenty of honey]

.
Plenty of Honey. You take take this issue with emotion. IT is not that bad.

Further more. When you get better queens, you need not treat you EFB hives. Get immune strain.
..
.

Finman, its your duty as a beekeeper to do the right thing, and the right thing in my mind, is to burn and move on!!
Yes i do take this issue with "emotion" we all should. Its not that bad as you say but, its bad enough!!!
Will look at the queen issues as i grow and expand more, thanks for that anyway!

 

[iand]

I received an update from my friend who's affiliated with the "Union National D'Apiculteurs Francais" . (French beekeeping union") They have just modified their original notice from 10 years ago and say now that treating Foul brood diseases, either AMF or EFB with any antibiotics is completely banned, on the grounds that no antibiotics tested, are actually working and treatment, even though it may appear to be working, only masks the underlying problem. More evidence for the hard decision treatment of burn and save others i would agree on !!

That's why we have the slaughter policy ,also for the likes of foot & mouth & TB.
Treated stock may look healthy with no symptoms but you have a carrier incubating the disease to spread around. Our stock breeders would be out of business if they were not be able to export, if their buyers thought they were buying disease in from this country, they would just go elsewhere.

 

[Plenty of honey]

My personal view, I am not the expert:
They don't just mask the problem. In fact when using antibiotics you breed more resistant types of AFB - you become AFB breeder and spreader.
If no reason for saving and possibility to do it properly with shaking ( without any antibiotics) - burn and move on.
At my place were some examples of using antibiotics and bursting infections on whole apiaries from time to time. But beauty is when use it, you don't know which will go first and how many ( whole apiary, whole area or..). It can grow as cascade.. Couple of new beeks I know bought first colonies and pretty soon they find that they bought infected colonies from long time beekeepers ( which tell more about their practice).. That tells more about humans than of AFB..

You have a great attitude Goran, you speak with experience and caution!! and like you said, your last sentence says it all, Wise words!!

 

[B+.]

But I can tell you, that Varroa does 10 fold more damage than AFB, and you do not cry for that. Stand like a man.

In England, beekeepers must abide by THE BEE DISEASES AND PEST CONTROL ORDER (2006) article 7 (2) (http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/index.cfm?pageid=119) which says:-

(2) Where the presence of American foul brood has been confirmed in a hive, an authorised
person—
(a) shall serve on the owner or person in charge of the hive a notice requiring the destruction
in accordance with the notice of any bees, combs or bee products from the hive;
(b) may serve on the owner or person in charge of the hive a notice requiring the destruction
or treatment in accordance with the notice of the hive, debris from the hive and any
appliances or other things liable to spread the disease;
(c) may serve on any other person who is the owner or person in charge of any appliances or
other things liable to spread the disease a notice requiring their destruction or treatment in
accordance with the notice.

 

[keith pierce]

Maybe not - But Baton rouge is a looooooooong way from here - somewhere East of Twickenham (AKA the mausoleum of English rugby) I believe. And, if, as you say they are pretty damn useless for anything apart from tidying up, the all round varroa beating, AFB, EFB immune honey gathering bee is still a myth. -Nice if it happens, but in this instance I think we are just discussing an apiarist's attempt to conceal the fact he has AFB on his premises, no wonder it's rife over there

First of all let me categorically tell you that i (99%) do not have or so far never had AFB and am not trying to conceal it. I have witnessed it on two occasions in apiaries and had the sad job of helping to burn their hives. In one instance we had 17 stacked up for burning. One of these outbreaks was in the association apiary and a demonstration was held for all members interested to attend and see what AFB looks like in real life before the hive was sealed and burned and this is the best way i believe in educating beekeepers in how and what to look for in their general inspections instead of just been obsessed in just finding the queen or queen cells. I always live in fear of it coming into my apiary’s and the devastation it would cause to about 20 years of hard selective breeding of my AMM bees. and this was the reasoning behind my question, do i kill and burn or could i try and save something out of the reckage .Yes, i have alot more stocks but we all have those queens that we love to brag about.

 

[keith pierce]

What are the chances of cross contamination if i requeened the agressive hive with the AFB queen



Possibly 100%
Torch the colony and save the others
Buy in a nice calm native Irish black Amm for your aggressive colony

( Do not take too much notice of Finski.. he lives on a cloud surrounded by cookooos!)

Nos da

Yes, but i do believe in what he said here.

FINMAN, But I have seen often, how queen sellers lie about their queens. No shame what they do.

I have been doing hard selectively culling and breeding AMM for about 20 years and there is a number of breeders’ in the country that i would be happy to take a queen from into my breeding program , but i have worked hard to get my bees to where they are now, but you are probably right in that its better to lose one of my top producers than all of them.

 

[mbc]

I think Finman is right to a certain extent though, afb is a serious bee desease but it should be approached from an informed viewpoint rather than one of ignorance and fear. Most beekeepers in this country will thankfully never come across afb yet almost all of us have to cope with an ongoing varroa problem. The biggest thing to my mind to keep in view with afb is that if caught early and dealt with appropriately it is only ever a minor inconvenience. It is when it is left to proliferate and spread within a population without the beekeepers knowledge that it can become a serious issue, so if we sensibly follow guidelines and inspect our brood, and investigate further with matchsticks anything that looks odd, forearmed with knowledge of what we're looking for, it should never get to the point of spreading uncontrollably.
Caution is a good thing, blind fear is not. If we look at the biology of the organism we see it has a fairly large LD50 -the number of causative organisms it takes to kill half the hosts- so even if it resides in feral or unmanaged colonies and your bees are within robbing range, they will not necessarily come down with it, the proventriculus is a marvellous thing.
Forearmed with this knowledge, if I had a priceless queen and her colony was unfortunate enough through no fault of their own to pick up afb, I'd have no qualms in trying to save her. I'd put her in as isolated a spot as I could and keep a close eye on her brood for a season or two with no splitting, and obviously thoroughly destroy the infective material from her original colony, but her genes would be saved.
There, I've said it.
Obviously this is all hypothetical and is not good advice to your average beekeeper, but for queen breeders in exceptional circumstances who have certain ability to spot any brood abnormalities, it's doable.

 

[Finman]

Yes, but i do believe in what he said here.

FINMAN, But I have seen often, how queen sellers lie about their queens. No shame what they do.

I have been doing hard selectively culling and breeding AMM for about 20 years and there is a number of breeders’ in the country that i would be happy to take a queen from into my breeding program , but i have worked hard to get my bees to where they are now, but you are probably right in that its better to lose one of my top producers than all of them.

Myth of hard producers and myth of busy hives, which forage even in rain.
However, best producers are hybrids. And worst are too hybrids. Variations from edge to edge.

I have selected my queens 50 years. I know what I do. I do not breed my own stock. It will not succeed with small colony number. It is easy to loose the whole genepool in inbreeding or/and loss of disease resistancy.

You can allwas bye new genepool. Actually it makes beekeeping interesting.
Last summer I started to renew my hybrid apiary. In two years I replace my hives' genepool.

I get my yield from good pastures. Even lazy bees start to forage when flowers are full of nectar.

.

 

[mbc]

Myth of hard producers. Best are hybrids.

I have selected my queens 50 years. IT is easy to loose the whole genepool in inbreeding or/and loss of disease resistsncy.

You can allwas bye new genepool. Actually it makes beekeeping interesting.
Last summer I started to renew my hybrid apiary. In two years I replace my hives' genepool.

I get my yield from good pastures. I know what I am seeking.

.

If everybody had this attitude rare breeds would be a thing of the past and the world a poorer place for it imho.
Also, colos recently published findings that showed local strains on average outperformed imports in most beekeeping areas. Finland and anywhere else bees are kept beyond their natural range are a bit of an anomaly.

 

[Finman]

In England, beekeepers must abide by THE BEE DISEASES AND PEST CONTROL ORDER (2006) article 7 (2) (http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/index.cfm?pageid=119) which says:-

(2) Where the presence of American foul brood has been confirmed in a hive, an authorised
person—
.

That is not the question, what is you policy and what your regulations say. Many other countries do the same.

But what I meant with my text is, that what ever you do there, you should read about the disease before you or every one start to deliver your feelings and rubbish: I am not expert but...

Then I was very irritated when after 2 moths experince in beekeeping a guy tryes to poke me down with ha ha ha writings.

Your mother language is English, and you should be able to read latest researched knowledge about the issue. But no. English intelligent poking is the best what you can offer in information. Nothing worth to learn.

It is not long way to Denmark and you would be interested in, what neighbour country do with that difficult disease. Germany has huge resources in honey bee research. That is why you sbould be a little bit interested, what is going there.

Basic of learning is living interest in bees and in plsnts. If you do not know enough from plants/bees food, it is hard to understand beekeeping.

But if it is social plaa plaa plaa writing, it is very good achievement to draw nothing from nothing.

I know a lot about AFB, and this is not a place to learn more.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

First of all let me categorically tell you that i (99%) do not have or so far never had AFB and am not trying to conceal it. I have witnessed it on two occasions in apiaries and had the sad job of helping to burn their hives. In one instance we had 17 stacked up for burning. One of these outbreaks was in the association apiary and a demonstration was held for all members interested to attend and see what AFB looks like in real life before the hive was sealed and burned and this is the best way i believe in educating beekeepers in how and what to look for in their general inspections instead of just been obsessed in just finding the queen or queen cells. I always live in fear of it coming into my apiary’s and the devastation it would cause to about 20 years of hard selective breeding of my AMM bees. and this was the reasoning behind my question, do i kill and burn or could i try and save something out of the reckage .Yes, i have alot more stocks but we all have those queens that we love to brag about.

Keith: I imagine you do this already with 50 hives because they'll be on many apiaries but I suggest if you are that invested in your stocks you MUST have some sort of lifeboat apiary TOTALLY quarantined (more than flying distance away, separate tools, equipment etc.)

 

[Goran]

You have a great attitude Goran, you speak with experience and caution!! and like you said, your last sentence says it all, Wise words!!

I am grateful that I have great mentor and a friend, also know some beeks who are also open-hearted and share their knowledge and experience - without any sound of vanity or sneer as some do..

Regards,
Goran.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

I agree whole heartedly with what "Plenty of honey" said. Goran is indeed a decent type, ask a question and if he can help he will do so and do it without being condescending or abusive.
English is not his mother tongue, but his command of that language is impressive.