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It looks at first like a serious insecticide kill.



Those with large numbers of colonies (commercial operations) that have lost 50% of their colonies, do notice this.

Sorry my comment was aimed more at the time lag between infection and and discovery. Indeed 50% is something hard to miss, but often i have seen large operations reach this level and i wonder how it got so bad so quickly.

My other comment wasnt on the appearance, sorry i am tired and expressing myself well tonight!

I am interested in how you felt upon seeing it on a large scale, one reason i ask is i can still remember the shock i felt at seeing what had happened, in my own case i had been to the same site three weeks earlier and had extremely high hopes for them. there is a bit of a back story to it, but the impact of what i saw is something that has stayed with me.

I ask others the same question because i always wonder if it has the same impact on others as it did me.
 
So whilst an individual bee keeper may not experience a decline in hive numbers or an increase in death rates the aggregate across countries or regions paints a different picture.
:iagree:

Counting kept colonies is, surely, flawed in the same way as saying there are plenty of cows because there are a lot of dairy farmers. I do wonder what the outcome would be if, for example, all beekeepers in an area suddenly decided to give up beekeeping and sold all their colonies to beekeepers outside the area.

This year in this area does seem to be strange, even though it seems to be very local. It may be because last year was a bad year for queens to get mated but we have not been inundated with swarm calls. In fact is eerily quiet. I've had just three calls whereas by this time last year I'd had over thirty.

I kept three swarms from last year, none of them made it through the winter. Some (those who've admitted it) of our association's beekeepers lost between 50% and 100% of their overwintered colonies. We're not talking about new and inexperienced beekeepers either, these are knowledgeable beekeepers who have been embarrassed and slightly bemused by the losses and it's meant that some of them are packing up, which'll eventually mean fewer colonies of bees in the area because, no matter how many prospective beekeepers we train, membership numbers seems to stay about the same and that pattern seems to be the same in most associations.

I do think it's a pity that all the organisations that were pumping out the 'The bees are dying' message over the last few years haven't used the income they generated to fund useful research.

Thanks, by the way, DJB, for the response about thyme.
 
Indeed 50% is something hard to miss, but often i have seen large operations reach this level and i wonder how it got so bad so quickly.

It appears to often hit quite suddenly, one week all appears quite normal, the next there can be thousands of dead and moribund bees piled up in front of the infected hives, often a couple of inches deep with dead bees, many at the entrances tugging at others to remove them, some shiny/greasy in appearance and some trembling uncontrollably, almost like they are doing the waggle dance.
 
:iagree:

Counting kept colonies is, surely, flawed in the same way as saying there are plenty of cows because there are a lot of dairy farmers. I do wonder what the outcome would be if, for example, all beekeepers in an area suddenly decided to give up beekeeping and sold all their colonies to beekeepers outside the area.

This year in this area does seem to be strange, even though it seems to be very local. It may be because last year was a bad year for queens to get mated but we have not been inundated with swarm calls. In fact is eerily quiet. I've had just three calls whereas by this time last year I'd had over thirty.

I kept three swarms from last year, none of them made it through the winter. Some (those who've admitted it) of our association's beekeepers lost between 50% and 100% of their overwintered colonies. We're not talking about new and inexperienced beekeepers either, these are knowledgeable beekeepers who have been embarrassed and slightly bemused by the losses and it's meant that some of them are packing up, which'll eventually mean fewer colonies of bees in the area because, no matter how many prospective beekeepers we train, membership numbers seems to stay about the same and that pattern seems to be the same in most associations.

I do think it's a pity that all the organisations that were pumping out the 'The bees are dying' message over the last few years haven't used the income they generated to fund useful research.

Thanks, by the way, DJB, for the response about thyme.

Hopefully what we are doing is useful research. Money is often not the problem (depending on research area), in some cases it can be difficult to assemble a team with the right mix of expertise. In our own case it has taken three years just to get everyone we wanted on the team, the assumption is often a scientist is a scientist, and to some extent this is true.

What this set of studies aims to do requires a team with a diverse set of expertise, many of those that were chosen were already working on other projects. Sometimes it is simply the nature of the beast! The best of the best are often busy, the choice becomes.Do you wait for the team you want and know can do the job, or do you assemble a team from second choices?

I know this sounds a little harsh but that isnt intended, when i was about to go into semi retirement when i was asked to lead the research studies, i did so on the condition i could pick each member of the team, i feel i have assembled one of the best research teams for this field anywhere in the world. For me i want results and answers, i no longer worry or care if my name heads a paper or not. My motivation in doing this research is simply because i believe in what we are trying to achieve.

To be fair some companies do put alot of money into research, you only have to look at pharma companies to see the vast sums spent on research. This is slightly different however, the attitude i have encountered so far at work has been one of wanting to actually try and understand some of the problems being faced, not all of our research will have anything to do with products or treatments. Much of the advice that will be given to governments etc will be centered around habitat (as an example), this is why i sometimes find it offensive when people make accusations that we are simply trying to make easy money, i can promise you there would be more money to be made with a quick reformulation of existing products, than any money likely to be ever made from our studies. As independents our only focus is to find answers and understand the mechanisms of decline.

I think we are going to need some significant policy changes and changes to attitude if anything effective is to happen. The answer isnt a cure but ultimately prevention.

Regards
Jason

You are welcome for the reply on the Romans, although you only just escaped me telling you about the history of Thyme going back to ancient Egypt! Thyme as a plant is fascinating. If you look at two of the main isomars (Thymol and carvacrol) and the chemical structure diagrams, you will notice something about them straight away, interesting that alone they exhibit far less potency than the sum of when put together.

I am sure you are familiar with a old English song.......Parsley, Sage,Rosemary and Thyme? The origanal version from long long ago was somewhat different, it originally only had Sage,Rosemary and Thyme in the song. These were known long ago as the 'healing trinity', there are many references to these herbs that crop up time and again in some fascinating places.

For example I am sure you know the story of the black death and the 'Four thieves vinegar'? There is much speculation on the actual concoction that gave them protection, but the one thing that is common to all has always been the inclusion of Sage, Rosemary and Thyme.

From a purely Bio Chemist perspective I find these herbs fascinating, another one considered long ago of great healing power is Wormwood, it is also one that is currently being researched in relation to bacterial resistance to antibiotics.:sorry: I get carried away on these kinds of topics :D
 
If you would like it tightly distilled into the bottom line then the simple fact is, the agricultural need for pollination is not currently being met by the pollinators available, while i do have a paper to back this up i think it would be unnecessary to do so.

Heaven forbid we should go down the line of trucking container loads of pollinating bees to be discarded after use. There must be another way. Is this what you are looking at?



however i managed to find a more recent publication in another journal (Journal of Apicultural Research 2010), this time it is open access and for those that wish to read it................

www.nationalbeeunit.com/downloadDocument.cfm?id=957




Interesting quote from the IBRA piece

Our data support the view that honey bees are in decline at least in some regions, which is probably closely linked to the decreasing number of beekeepers.
 
@j bell, do those figures for hive numbers ever mention it is not as profitable to keep bees anymore due to cheap imports and poorer foraging, this is much more likely imo to be effecting overall numbers..
 
I do believe Finman has met his match :icon_204-2::icon_204-2::icon_204-2:
Sorry, couldn't resist it!
 
I had hoped for a little more substance, you are however correct on your assumption of the value of my time. I can assure you i will resist wasting any more of it with you

Regards
Dr J.Bell

There is an ignore button .. you can just put a member on ignore and you will not even see their posts ... unfortunately Finman can be a blight to some threads ...

I have been sitting and watching as I am a non-treater ... I am, however, pragmatic and if someone discovers the magic bullet or is just seeking the magic bullet then I am all in favour of it.

Sadly, beekeepers often have a poor opinion of the large agrochemical companies - there is a strong perception that anything they do is motivated by profit and the fact that our land and wildlife has been so decimated (in part as a result of pesticides and selective herbicides) is a strong witness to their continued desire to steer our farming (and beekeeping to a lesser extent) away from more natural methods - to coin your analogy - taking a 10lb sledge to kill the cockroach and charging for a steam hammer in the process. Unfortunately this approach, whilst producing blight free, high value crops is having a constant and detrimental effect on the balance of our wildlife and our pollinators and everything around us - the general destruction required to kill the cockroach has inevitably killed eveything else in the vicinity ! .... You don't have to be a scientist to see the effects of our changing environment - you just have to be old and able to remember when swifts, swallows and skylarks were abundant, when you could still find meadows filled with wild flowers, when butterflies of countless varieties were everywhere, when Maybugs really represented a threat to riding a motorcycle at night in June and when fields did not require tractors the size of a London Bus to do the work ... the hedgerows and field margins were wildlife havens, urban gardens were weeded by hand not blasted with Roundup - and our front gardens were filled with flowers not brick paving - so much of this has now gone and people seek a clinical chemical solution that requires no more effort than squeezing the trigger - of a spray bottle.

Whilst I applaud your research, the last thing I want to see in beekeeping is yet another chemical solution to the problems we face. What I would like to see is less treatment in agriculture generally and people accepting that some fresh food is going to be damaged or misshapen - it's still edible ! We throw as much food away in this country as we eat .. and the resultant pressure on the producers to provide more crops from the same acreage seems to me to be putting the cart before the horse .. what we should be doing is accepting that there is a finite, optimum level of production and tailoring our needs and diet to those levels. But I digress ... although it has a relevance to this thread.

I'm not the oldest on this forum but I'm past state retirement age and I worry for my children and grandchildren what sort of a world we are creating - and what the hidden damage to human life is from residual chemicals in the food chain. No matter how 'natural' they start out they will still be chemicals by the time they get to the end user and the consumer.

So ... Good luck with your research - you will find hobbyist beekeepers amongst the most helpful and generous people and those on here are generally no exception. I'm sure you will find plenty willing to assist you.
 
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No far from it, you have stated your case well.

If you would like it tightly distilled into the bottom line then the simple fact is, the agricultural need for pollination is not currently being met by the pollinators available, while i do have a paper to back this up i think it would be unnecessary to do so.
....

what surprise! the flying insect population (in the South UK at least) is dramatically reduced since the late 1990's. This is from personal experience as a motorcyclist. A helmet visor samples the insect population by collision after a while you need to clean it in order to see where you are going. In the late 1990's in Summer it needed cleaning at least every 30 to 80 miles (luckily the distance between Happy Chefs). By 2012 you could travel 150 to 300 miles without needing to clean the visor.
Something has made the flying insects dissapear since the 1990's. Replacing those insects with Honeybees is sticking a plaster on an ecological catastrophe.
fixing honeybee pathology is unfortunately not the big picture solution
Derek - a researcher into something related to Honeybees pathology :)
 
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All statistics show, the number of hives are rising in the world. But like in Eastern Europe, they do not count their hives.

London is stucked with hives and Mayor bought them more.

Ask from motorcyclists.

Beekeepers in Finland resist GMO plants. Why, because we do not have any GMO plants.

I asked, why I should resist GMO? Answer was, that every beekeeper in Europe resists.

Yeah. Collective chorus tells more than thousands researches.

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Heaven forbid we should go down the line of trucking container loads of pollinating bees to be discarded after use. There must be another way. Is this what you are looking at?

Absolutely not! My own role is to run several studies, one of which is attempting to engage small scale producers and gather data from them. To understand what we are looking at/for you will need to discard much of what has been published in the past.

Until recently it wasnt that common knowledge that varroa was in fact 4 species with 3 further sub species. Papers have been written on the Taxonomy time and again and the conclusions switch back and forth.

Overall the consensus is two are the most serious risk, these two species are multi reservoir vectors. It is fairly uncommon to encounter a host organism seemingly able to accept different viral loads at the same time with no effect on its own colonies. Many of the larger producer we have met and worked with were unable to tell the difference between one species of Varroa and another.

The hard facts are only two species of Varroa will actually do much harm to a hive. The healthy hive isnt so much affected by the Varroa, if Varroa were the only organism involved then it is unlikely to cause much of an issue, where problems with disease have crept in is down to two particular species of Varroa, both of these are able to carry several different virus at the same time.

Time and again we see specimens sent in from collapsed colonies that outwardly show little more than extremely high Varroa loads, the assumption is the hive died because of this high load. What we often find on doing RNA screening is the colonie became stressed due to high Varroa loading and at this point the viral vector took over. Collapse can be quick and before much evidence of any but varroa is present.

Where our problems lay is with one sub species in particular, to use an anology this particular sub species if it were say a mosquito, would be able to host both Malaria,The black death and the Flu virus all at the same time. This is where our real concern comes in, we have a growing evidence of a host parasite that is able to act as vector to new virus as contact with the virus is made. Normally we would expect an organism to have a favored vector, any other vector trying to infect the host parasite would kill the host, we are not seeing this.

In part I agree with the research that some Bees are in decline because of decreasing numbers of Beekeepers, what the study dosnt address is exactly why so many are giving up. Having seen privileged figures in the last 10 years the incidence of disease has grown to levels that are now considered a real threat.

One of the main studies we are working on is aimed at getting to the bottom of wild colonie decline, no one in my team or within the other groups we are working with, are hoping or looking for a single solution. I do think action on a vast scale will need to be taken to at least bring parasite and host back into balance. But there are many other areas we are looking at, for example modern farming practice and habitat fragmentation.
An example of this local to me involves the A75 road, a bypass was put in not too long ago, no one paid any attention to 4 extremely large wild colonies near the edge of a wood. The road was built directly across from the wood and flight line to foraging grounds.

This particular colonies had been studied for around 15 years, as of last year none are left. In this instance the cause was entirely man made, while environmental impact are done, these often look at protected species such as water vole etc, even in areas where the impact reports indicate the project would have a negative impact, this is often buried or a pipe merely placed in the area and the impact considered dealt with.

The study most small producers are being asked to take part in consists of several phases, phase one we are gathering information, we ask for logs to be kept. If the keeper is able to identify the species of varroa then this is useful, if not we supply a pre paid kit to send us a sample.

First we need to build up a map that shows where different problems are, only once this is done can we move on to looking at how we can improve things in favor of the Bee.

One last point.............

I have seen mentioned recently on here the idea of licensing, This is something we and others are strongly pushing for. I see no reason for it to cost anything to the beekeeper. At the moment in the UK you can register free of charge as a small holding, if you keep under 50 chickens you dont have to register your flock. If you keep more then you register, at no point is a fee charged. The only reason for this system is to keep track of the movement of disease etc.

I personally would see licensing as a positive step forwarded, at the moment we are working blind. NO ONE has the faintest idea just how many managed hives are out there, to me this is unacceptable when you consider the importance of the industry as a whole, and its effect on most other aspects of agriculture.

I dont mind suspicion, but please do not confuse us and what we do with agri pharma sales reps! We are solely interested in understanding a problem and hopefully reaching a point where we can put forward a cohesive plan.

Regards
Jason (Or Joseph apparently:D )
 
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Splended. But when I have been on British beekeeping forums 10 years, I have teached really much how to treat varroa with modern systems.
Bristish authorities or British reachers were not able to advice beeks how to do it. 2005 there was simple and practical advices in UK, but then "against law" rumour won common sense. And advices became really complex. Protect yourself against oxalic acid were amazing!

We had in Finland two pages advices and UK had 20 pages. But that two pages were written by a guy, who had 1000 hives.

Varroa treatment advices were published in Internet with very clear English, but every society must do its own advices.

I wonder, where were those researchers.

EU Varroa Group had a place to the British member, but he was never in the group.
Contact to the Group was missing, and beeks generated their own stories about treatments.

Ireland succeeded to copy an old paper in their advices, and after 10 years that wrong value is still there (4%)

My opinion is, that perhaps British bee researchers have been busy, but very far from practical. 80 years old chaps gave made their own studies and delivered his "findings".

.. And strawberry on cake... After all consultations British beeks were allowed to buy Italian 6% oxalic acid, what guys said that it is actually 3.5%. Real mesh... And best advice: Do nothing. Volume by weight secret.

Canada took 10 years later oxalic acid consentrarion from Switzerland, 2.8% and all continued happily.



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All statistics show, the number of hives are rising in the world.

Ask from motorcyclists.

What a great idea!! Lets make it compulsory for motorcyclist to count all dead Bees on there helmets!! We can ignore small details like motorcycles mainly being confined to roads.

Ok can you please link to a scientific stud to back this up please? Or by ALL statistics, do you actually mean " according to the figure i just wrote on some random piece of paper"?

As I said in an above post, if you traveled a year or two ago on a certain stretch of the A75 you would of thought Bees were everywhere, look deeper and you discover a by pass was built directly across the flight path or several large wild colonies.

So using your scientific method i would have spent a year asking motorcyclist traveling along that section of road how many Bees they had encountered.
Imagine how happy I would have been to learn of the vast numbers they had encountered, my report would have brimmed over with good news about huge quantities of Bees in the area.

Now imagine I had returned ~2 years later and not found a single Bee? This is the case now. As a scientist I would rather go inspect the colonies and count the number of active hives each year, I have yet to read any evidence that asking a motorcyclist is an excepted scientific method for counting bees.

At this point I am beginning to think you may benefit from one or all of the following.

First I would have any honey i was consuming tested for the pollen of Rhododendron ponticum.

I would be inclined to stop consuming fermented honey in quantities that were unsuitable for me.

I would also respectfully suggest that should you wish to engage in SCIENTIFIC discourse, then you at least try and get some form of formal scientific training. While basing a study of Bee decline, on asking bikers to count dead bees on there helmets, sounds.......appealing, you will find most first year university students would be able to point out several flaws in doing this.

At the moment all we are doing is asking people to keep records and take notes, we would also be grateful if they reported even seemingly trivial problems to us. The worse that can happen is a small package arrives and we ask you nicely if you would mind taking a sample. In all cases the information is confidential.

If we discover a notifiable disease we would inform you, currently the position is the onus of reporting notifiable disease would rest with you and not us. In reality we would inform you of the problem and request you report it, we would follow this up within a couple of weeks and ask for the inspectors number and name, this is purely so we can contact them and get there feedback as professionals.

When all is said and done, we are on YOUR SIDE. We want what is best for the Bee, it dosnt matter if you find winters no different to normal, this dosnt mean climate change isnt happening. A belief system is not fact, by definition its a belief. The simple hard undisputed fact being, pollination is in decline, and at current rates we will lack capacity to pollinate the amount of agriculture needed to sustain food production.

regards
Dr J.Bell
 
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Splended. But when I have been on British beekeeping forums 10 years, I have teached really much how to treat varroa with modern systems.
Bristish authorities or British reachers were not able to advice beeks how to do it. 2005 there was simple and practical advices in UK, but then "against law" rumour won common sense. And advices became really complex. Protect yourself against oxalic acid were amazing!

We had in Finland two pages advices and UK had 20 pages. But that two pages were written by a guy, who had 1000 hives.

Varroa treatment advices were published in Internet with very clear English, but every society must do its own advices.

I wonder, where were those researchers.

EU Varroa Group had a place to the British member, but he was never in the group.
Contact to the Group was missing, and beeks generated their own stories about treatments.

Ireland succeeded to copy an old paper in their advices, and after 10 years that wrong value is still there.

My opinion is, that perhaps British bee researchers have been busy, but very far from practical. 80 years old chaps gave made their own studies and delivered his "findings".

..
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I dont suppose it has occurred to you that the difference in climate between the UK and Finland as any bearing on why Finland has less problems? No I didnt think so.

The rest is utter drivel, normally i would respectfully suggest it was drivel. However in this instance the evidence is so overwhelming I decided to drop the respectfully part.

Dr J.Bell
 
I dont suppose it has occurred to you that the difference in climate between the UK and Finland as any bearing on why Finland has less problems? No I didnt think so.


Dr J.Bell

Oh dear. That climate factor again. We use same advices as Italy.
Those treatment advices are same everywhere in the world.

I am obliged to read that climate thing every week on forum, even if I studied climatology in Helsinki University 50 years ago. Then I look every week your weather forecasts.

I really know, that you have on isles so strange climate, that you cannot take researcb results from another world, you must do everythng yourself. But Britain is only country, where over 90% of beekeepers are 2-hive owners, which do not minf to read researches even if you give a link. They prefer to invent their own facts.

I have learned really much from Australian beekeeping. They have practical researchers.

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You are out there very fond of Michael Palmer's advices. We have quite same climate in Finland as Palmer has.

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Bell, can you tell, how formic acid and thymol works differently in different climates?
 
First I would have any honey i was consuming tested for the pollen of Rhododendron ponticum.

I would be inclined to stop consuming fermented honey in quantities that were unsuitable for me.

:icon_204-2::icon_204-2:

Treated meself to a box of maltesers as well, this could be interesting :D
 

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