A new study

[foghornleghorn]

According to the fao beehive numbers have been increasing, dont see any reason to doubt their data

 

[enrico]

Insects don't hit motorcycle helmets or car windscreens any more because they have evolved to miss the cars and bikes! Those that didn't evolve have been splatted! Those that chose to avoid death bred others that were wise to the dangers!
Well that's my theory anyway.
Just joking...........but............
E

 

[sugarbush]

.
You are out there very fond of Michael Palmer's advices. We have quite same climate in Finland as Palmer has.

Palmers (and mine) location and yours is 15 degrees north difference. You recently replied to a comment of mine about you having a similar climate as Alaska and now you are comparing it to Vermont's? Having spent most of my life in Vermont and some time in the military in Alaska, I assure you they are drastically different climates.

I can only look at a map of finland and see that you are located at 60 deg north, 15 deg farther north than us.... I think about that and am inspired that you are able to make bees live there.

 

[B+.]

I personally would see licensing as a positive step forwarded, at the moment we are working blind. NO ONE has the faintest idea just how many managed hives are out there, to me this is unacceptable when you consider the importance of the industry as a whole, and its effect on most other aspects of agriculture.

Regards
Jason (Or Joseph apparently )

This topic has been discussed ad nauseam and there is a concern that it would lead to an income tax liability even though beekeeping as a hobby costs more than it generates

 

[B+.]

Having spent most of my life in Vermont and some time in the military in Alaska.

What did you do to deserve that?

 

[Dr J.Bell]

This topic has been discussed ad nauseam and there is a concern that it would lead to an income tax liability even though beekeeping as a hobby costs more than it generates

To be clear on this.

The proposal currently being put forward is along the lines of what small holders do, in my own case i purchased a house large enough to be classed as a small holding, the previous owner had registered it as such.

I get one form a year asking me what I keep (the wife has a few hives and 4 chickens!!), thats as far as it goes. it has cost us nothing but we did get a notification last year of a suspected case of Newcastle disease in our area (turned out to be negative).

This is exactly the kind of system being looked into, if you sell honey to the point you should pay tax, then you should be doing that anyway. If your making a loss then registering as a business and offsetting the losses would make financial sense?

However this is not what is being discussed, the proposal has nothing to do with tax, the sole intention is bio security. To be honest had we had stricter controls a few years ago then foot and mouth wouldnt have caused the devastation that it did.

In all honesty it isnt a question as to if a license system will be introduced, but rather when it will come in and how it will be implemented. If you would like further information on what is currently being looked at i will get some details, i cant remember it all line by line but i am in favor and cant see anything being proposed that would cause concern to the small producer.

Anyone keeping 1000 hives and not declaring as a business......well you take your chances as it is, my view if i had say 30 hives would to be dissapointed each year when i had zero honey to sell , i would however be willing to fill in movement forms and abide by standstill rules. But it really is a mute point, ask anyone simply registered with a parish number for a small holding. All they are interested in is the legal movement of animals and knowing how many are at which location, its simply a disease management measure brought in with tighter controls because we got lazy and paid the price with foot and mouth.

 

[Finman]

Palmers (and mine) location and yours is 15 degrees north difference. You recently replied to a comment of mine about you having a similar climate as Alaska and now you are comparing it to Vermont's? Having spent most of my life in Vermont and some time in the military in Alaska, I assure you they are drastically different climates.

I can only look at a map of finland and see that you are located at 60 deg north, 15 deg farther north than us.... I think about that and am inspired that you are able to make bees live there.

Yes but you have not knowledge.

If you continue to Siberia along 60 degree, you meet there Yakutsk . Its normal winter is -40 to -50C cold. Highway to Yakutskis is on permanent frost. When it melts, the cars sink into mud. You see pictures in google.

What they are doing there? Yakutians most important export stuffs are diamonds.

What Palmer has told about spring and autumn, our time tables are quite near. The lenght of winter is important in beekeeping.

The most ridiculous is USA. IT has areas from tropic to arctic tundra, and they nurse their bees with same methods. No climatic differencies. Californian beekeepers advice Michigan beekeepers, how to feed hives at Christmas..

Texas is three fold size compared to Finland.

.

 

[Finman]

According to the fao beehive numbers have been increasing, dont see any reason to doubt their data

Yeah. It is simple when you write into google "beehive number worlwide".

 

[Dr J.Bell]

.
Bell, can you tell, how formic acid and thymol works differently in different climates?

Certainly, however your question is somewhat without merit as you will see.

Thymol and Oxalic acid if you used in lower temperatures will be slightly more viscous, i say slightly because I couldnt be bothered to get off my chair and go look the actual number up, my apologize for this but seeing as the question was irrelevant i doubt it matters.

So let me ask you this.. If mode of action on medication is negligible between a cold and warmer climate, what factors do you think would come into play with climate being the main factor?

To save time and because i find much of what you write difficult to understand, i will answer this for you.

In colder climates the life cycle of the disease organism is shorter, if the climate is cold enough then the viral load is unable to reach levels at which disease will become a problem. When trying to deal with such problems it is imperative one considers how the organisms replicate and work. Before going into this it is also important to understand which species of Varroa you are dealing with, i appreciate that all Varroa when crossing over into Finland turn into the same organism but for the rest of us this is not the case.

Varrora are an agent, in large numbers they can weaken a hive, a weakened hive has more susceptibility to other infections, this is nearly the same principle of stressed people being more susceptible to colds and infections etc, this is often referred too as being 'run down'.

Back on topic..............

Now the payload for (lets call them BAD Varroa, as i like that) is often one of around 12 virus (yes current literature most have access too says 6-8, its wrong! and new data will available soon). A virus is a simple string of Rna (Ribonucleic acid ), it needs a host cell to replicate. Now in colder climate organisms like Bees and indeed Varrora have slower metabolisms at lower temperatures, slower metabolisms mean less metabolites for the RNA to attached and encode for its replication, this then leads to..............fewer virus within the host cell!

There are some good general biology books to give you the basic grounding in Biological systems, one i often used to recommend to my students was Campbell (current edition i believe is 10th), a few weeks reading that should bring you upto the level of most first year undergraduates, from there i can explain some of the more difficult concepts if you wish.

Regards
Dr Jason Bell

 

[Dr J.Bell]

Insects don't hit motorcycle helmets or car windscreens any more because they have evolved to miss the cars and bikes! Those that didn't evolve have been splatted! Those that chose to avoid death bred others that were wise to the dangers!
Well that's my theory anyway.
Just joking...........but............
E

You could be right, however i am beginning to see evidence of less evolution in Finland so maybe the bees have evolved more slowly as well.

 

[sugarbush]

What did you do to deserve that?

Volunteered to go.

 

[Dr J.Bell]

According to the fao beehive numbers have been increasing, dont see any reason to doubt their data

Funny enough there data correlates to my tea leaves this morning, unfortunately I have the same amount of faith in both.

 

[foghornleghorn]

Funny enough there data correlates to my tea leaves this morning, unfortunately I have the same amount of faith in both.

What is wrong with their figures?

 

[Finman]

Certainly, however your question is somewhat without merit as you will see.

Thymol and Oxalic acid if you used in lower temperatures will be slightly more viscous, i say slightly because I couldnt be bothered to get off my chair and go look the actual number up, my apologize for this but seeing as the question was irrelevant i doubt it matters.

So let me ask you this.. If mode of action on medication is negligible between a cold and warmer climate, what factors do you think would come into play with climate being the main factor?

To save time and because i find much of what you write difficult to understand, i will answer this for you.

In colder climates the life cycle of the disease organism is shorter, if the climate is cold enough then the viral load is unable to reach levels at which disease will become a problem. When trying to deal with such problems it is imperative one considers how the organisms replicate and work. Before going into this it is also important to understand which species of Varroa you are dealing with, i appreciate that all Varroa when crossing over into Finland turn into the same organism but for the rest of us this is not the case.

Varrora are an agent, in large numbers they can weaken a hive, a weakened hive has more susceptibility to other infections, this is nearly the same principle of stressed people being more susceptible to colds and infections etc, this is often referred too as being 'run down'.

Back on topic..............

Now the payload for (lets call them BAD Varroa, as i like that) is often one of around 12 virus (yes current literature most have access too says 6-8, its wrong! and new data will available soon). A virus is a simple string of Rna (Ribonucleic acid ), it needs a host cell to replicate. Now in colder climate organisms like Bees and indeed Varrora have slower metabolisms at lower temperatures, slower metabolisms mean less metabolites for the RNA to attached and encode for its replication, this then leads to..............fewer virus within the host cell!

There are some good general biology books to give you the basic grounding in Biological systems, one i often used to recommend to my students was Campbell (current edition i believe is 10th), a few weeks reading that should bring you upto the level of most first year undergraduates, from there i can explain some of the more difficult concepts if you wish.

Regards
Dr Jason Bell

So you do not know.

Anser is simple.

You must use formic acid and thymol over 17C out temp.
Formic acid starts to kill queens, when out temp goes over 25C.

Oxalic acid has three basic way to use. It is not temp sensitive.

Sugar is used in trickling,that it makes bees dirty and acid stays long on bees body.

 

[B+.]

To be clear on this.

The proposal currently being put forward

Most beekeepers are already registered on BeeBase. This is used by APHA for inspection/disease management. Why would you want to introduce a licensing system that does the same thing except, possibly, to make it compulsory instead of voluntary....in which case the relationship many of us have with the bee inspectors changes at a stroke

 

[Finman]

1)

In colder climates the life cycle of the disease organism is shorter, if the climate is cold enough then the viral load is unable to reach levels at which disease will become a problem. When trying to deal with such problems it is imperative one considers how the organisms replicate and work. Before going into this it is also important to understand which species of Varroa you are dealing with, i appreciate that all Varroa when crossing over into Finland turn into the same organism but for the rest of us this is not the case.


2)
There are some good general biology books to give you the basic grounding in Biological systems, one i often used to recommend to my students was Campbell (current edition i believe is 10th), a few weeks reading that should bring you upto the level of most first year undergraduates, from there i can explain some of the more difficult concepts if you wish.

Regards
Dr Jason Bell

1) that text has nothing to do with beekeeping. In beehives temps are quite constant.

2) when you or your under graduates get 150 kg honey from one hive, then you can phone to me even at night. I get that every year, and you have not slightest idea, how it is possible in 4-6 weeks. My record is 200 kg from one hive. I use my biological skills.

Since that I have no slightes need to read about basics of biology. Whatfor for I chould do that?

I can see from your text, that you hardly know anything about bees. Ask from your undergraduates.

My favorit is: Do not teach duck to swim.

PS: Read te book "Beekeeping for Dummies". £17.

.

 

[sugarbush]

Anyone keeping 1000 hives and not declaring as a business......well you take your chances as it is, my view if i had say 30 hives would to be dissapointed each year when i had zero honey to sell , i would however be willing to fill in movement forms and abide by standstill rules. But it really is a mute point, ask anyone simply registered with a parish number for a small holding. All they are interested in is the legal movement of animals and knowing how many are at which location, its simply a disease management measure brought in with tighter controls because we got lazy and paid the price with foot and mouth.

Two things; first is that here there are tax benefits to declare business status, even with far fewer than 1000 hives. I have filed taxes as a business for years, even in years when I only have a few active hives.

Second: Hive registration is mandatory in many states and has been for much longer than I have been keeping bees. mandating something and enforcing it are two different things. Migratory don't keep their hives in one place long enough to register them and it's tough for a state to catch up with them. I know of a local operation with who publicly claims to run 300 hives, but none of them appear on the states registry of hives. I generally do not register my hives and have on more than one occasion refused inspector access to inspect. The general consensus here is it's none of the governments business.... It's an American thing, the Brits taught us

Yes but you have not knowledge.

What Palmer has told about spring and autumn, our time tables are quite near. The lenght of winter is important in beekeeping.

So is daylight; google says your shortest day of the year is 6 hrs of daylight, ours is 10 hrs. I don't for a minute buy that our climates are similar.

Also by your own omission, the bees you keep are different than the ones we keep. My bees need 50-80 lbs of stores to winter successfully. My best hives gained 120 lbs of weight in May. If things continue as they are now I will have hives with excess of 300 lbs of honey this season. What do yours average?

 

[Finman]

. My bees need 50-80 lbs of stores to winter successfully.?

Why shoud they be similar. When you drive with your car 500 miles,, climate is different. What idea isto debate about that. I did not started. What wisdom you need to understand different climates nowadays?
But bees are same. I nurse my bees with American beekeeping basics.

My hives consume 40 lbs on average sugar during winter from September to May.
I extract all honey from hives before feeding.

This year I took from every hive 10-20 lbs winter food away, because winter was so warm.

Our willows start to bloom first of May. All natural flowers are gone 10.8.

 

[sugarbush]

I nurse my bees with American beekeeping basics.

In what way? Our methods are pretty vast. And the US doesn't produce and sell 1.5 million packages per year because all methods are successful, many producers let them die and buy new. That is probably one of the most often practiced methods. Second is to migrate them south and not winter in the north at all. On a commercial side of things Palmer's practices are the exception rather than the rule.

I extract all honey from hives before feeding.

I try and leave enough honey on, and only feed in the fall, nothing through the winter.

Our willows start to bloom first of May. All natural flowers are gone 10.8.

Pollen starts coming in off willow and skunk cabbage late March/early April. Maple flow hits about the same time.

 

[enrico]

You could be right, however i am beginning to see evidence of less evolution in Finland so maybe the bees have evolved more slowly as well.

oh well said!
E