Why say NO to doing a course?

[Brosville]

Unfortunately there is a very visible attempt by the BBKA to enforce a monopoly on beekeeping, whether it's by claiming to be the only voice for beekeepers, that they offer the only valid training, that you MUST have their next to useless insurance, and a new one in this area, trying to grab all the swarms which they then SELL to newbies (but only if they have been through full indoctrination and political training) - it takes someone of strong character to tell them where to go, and choose to "go it alone" - I would suggest if newbies have that strength, they're also well up to seeking out relevant knowledge and training.....

 

[Sugar Water]

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Unfortunately there is a very visible attempt by the BBKA to enforce a monopoly on beekeeping, whether it's by claiming to be the only voice for beekeepers, that they offer the only valid training, that you MUST have their next to useless insurance, and a new one in this area, trying to grab all the swarms which they then SELL to newbies (but only if they have been through full indoctrination and political training) - it takes someone of strong character to tell them where to go, and choose to "go it alone" - I would suggest if newbies have that strength, they're also well up to seeking out relevant knowledge and training.....

I think we should mark the difference between a beginners course and the BBKA basic assessment. They are not the same thing.
As far as I am aware, most beginners courses are run by local BKAs who, although they are affiliated to the BBKA, will set the syllabus and style of the course themselves. There seems to be an assumption that all courses are run by evil, pompous, blinkered morons. I think many people's experience of such courses will be far from that description.

 

[MuswellMetro]

I can understand people not wanting to take a course because of lack of availability or because the course content is unsuitable for them. What worries me though is those who go on a two day crash course and come away with a full hive to stick next to their garden shed.
I guess that's a different discussion though.

There is one near me £160 for 8 hours in classroom and 2 hours at apairy and then they have eight x two hour follow up at £20 each course that covers

Intermediary modules

Theory:

1 Disease and pest control deep dive
2 Exam preparation
3Selling honey (label regulations, equipment)

Practical:

4Hive inspection
5Hive assembly – make your own hive and frames
6Honey extraction
7Queen marking & clipping
8Using a nucleus hive for breeding and stocking


so thats £160 plus £160 for intermediate course and they get commision on and sell you a hive at £hornes prices and a packet of bees from gloucester with swarmy carnolian at £170 and then say YOU MUST JOIN YOUR LOCAL beekeepers association AND we are saying why should we pick up the pieces, just look ratio is 25 beginners to two tutors, i doubt you touch a more that one frame each at the 2 hours practical

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Sounds like profiteering to me.

The course I did was £20 for a 10 week theory course over winter (total 20 hours) and then a free practical course over the summer if you joined the BKA.
Total cost £45.

 

[Brosville]

"There seems to be an assumption that all courses are run by evil, pompous, blinkered morons" - I know that there ARE excellent broad-based courses, and have said so, but sadly in this area there are some that are precisely as you've described ...

There is also the inescapable fact that in almost all clubs, if you sign up for "basic training" then they demand you become a full member of the BBKA, and in many clubs it is far easier to "toe the line" than dare to be different.

There are some really excellent courses run by the Natural Beekeeping Trust, but I wouldn't dream of suggesting that they're for "everyone", but everyone I know who's been on them is full of praise

 

[Sugar Water]

so thats £160 plus £160 for intermediate course and they get commision on and sell you a hive at £hornes prices and a packet of bees from gloucester with swarmy carnolian at £170 and then say YOU MUST JOIN YOUR LOCAL beekeepers association AND we are saying why should we pick up the pieces, just look ratio is 25 beginners to two tutors, i doubt you touch a more that one frame each at the 2 hours practical

 

[Sugar Water]

are yu booked on a course? if so which one

my hives are near Mill Hill, if you haven't been on a taster day come and get your gloves covered in yellow propolis

I have my name down ready for the next up comming course.

Mill Hill...... ohh larr de daa! Never heard of the place!

Im in Stanmore

 

[Nellie]

"There seems to be an assumption that all courses are run by evil, pompous, blinkered morons" - I know that there ARE excellent broad-based courses, and have said so, but sadly in this area there are some that are precisely as you've described ...

There is also the inescapable fact that in almost all clubs, if you sign up for "basic training" then they demand you become a full member of the BBKA, and in many clubs it is far easier to "toe the line" than dare to be different.

There are some really excellent courses run by the Natural Beekeeping Trust, but I wouldn't dream of suggesting that they're for "everyone", but everyone I know who's been on them is full of praise

Our beginners courses are independent of membership which is not a requirement of attending the course.

We don't demand you join the BBKA, membership comes as part of the package of local association membership, it's the national body that supposedly represents the association's interests.

What you choose to do with that membership is up to you. If you want to send back your membership card and tell them you don't want to be associated with them that's up to you.

Weird idea, take the membership, put forward motions to the ADM and affect change from within, it's kind of the point of democracy. You get nothing for standing outside tge system and whinging about how unfair it is.

 

[Nellie]

And if you want a course based on indoctrination, mythology and half truth I'll point you to a group near me where a 1st year "bee watcher" who's never been a member of our association or kept bees will tell you about the evils and chemical intensity of modern beekeeping, extol the magical properties of the top bar hive and that encouraging your bees, in the middle of a city, to swarm as much as possible is good practice.

We still invite them to come talk to our members in the interests of covering as many avenues of beekeeping and hive types as possible though.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

You get nothing for standing outside tge system and whinging about how unfair it is.

I totally agree Nellie.
I also think that those who, when they started out, were unable to find a course that suits their style of beekeeping should now be setting up their own beekeeping clubs to provide such courses.
And, yes, I appreciate that many already do.

We all keep our bees in different ways, and we should all do what we can to share our methods with newbies.

 

[Nellie]

No argument from me. The only issue I have with the other lot around us is that they're not "selling" beekeeping, they're selling an ideology created around bees. Its evangelism not education.

Guys like Brosville can bang on about the evils of modern beekeeping Associations and how they indoctrinates people but from where I'm sat we're pretty open about what we teach and why, we cover good and bad, practices we recommend and those we don't and do our best to give people as much information as possible to draw their own conclusions about how they want to keep bees.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Yep, our assoc has a training apiary with a national, a wbc, a warre and a TBH.
Not all BKAs are prescriptive.

 

[Chris Luck]

Yep, our assoc has a training apiary with a national, a wbc, a warre and a TBH.

Having a selection of hive types has nothing to do with how they are managed and that is where I take issue these days. I know a Brit near me that is "teaching", has one of every hive type but it's still maximum interference, manipulations and treatments.

....anyway, that aside, Brosville sums up my perspective far better than I could......and I'm not in the UK.

Chris

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Having a selection of hive types has nothing to do with how they are managed and that is where I take issue these days. I know a Brit near me that is "teaching", has one of every hive type but it's still maximum interference, manipulations and treatments.

....anyway, that aside, Brosville sums up my perspective far better than I could......and I'm not in the UK.

Chris

True, but it shows that some BKAs are willing to experiment and embrace new ideas.

 

[MuswellMetro]

Yep, our assoc has a training apiary with a national, a wbc, a warre and a TBH.
Not all BKAs are prescriptive.

our main apairy used for training has the following

National WBC ,14x12 jumbo, Dartington, hedgecoe €€€( half a dartington), and other apiaires used have a commercials and a lone langstroth (now disued )

but no one in the assocation knows about TBH

 

[Nellie]

Having a selection of hive types has nothing to do with how they are managed and that is where I take issue these days. I know a Brit near me that is "teaching", has one of every hive type but it's still maximum interference, manipulations and treatments.

....anyway, that aside, Brosville sums up my perspective far better than I could......and I'm not in the UK.

Chris

At least you've got an excuse for making assumptions that have little to no basis on reality.

Have your cosy little notion that theres "one prescribed method of keeping bees and though shalt follow no other" by all means but in my experience that outlook isn't coming from the local associations or beekeepers involved in education that I know.

 

[Chris Luck]

Have your cosy little notion that theres "one prescribed method of keeping bees and though shalt follow no other" by all means but in my experience that outlook isn't coming from the local associations or beekeepers involved in education that I know.

Really? I don't see much evidence of that on here but I guess they aren't members.

Chris

 

[Brosville]

I think Nellie is very lucky indeed! My personal experience with one of the local associations was the stuff of which nightmares are made -I was TOLD (amongst other things) that I was stupid to even contemplate beekeeping without chemicals, that it wasn't possible, that I would spread disease and be a menace to society if I even contemplated a TBH, and that Phil Chandler was an eco-terrorist (sic) - in the most obnoxious and patronising way
I was told that if I wanted to go on the training course that I had to became a full member of the BBKA (no option or arguing) or leave the association - I did, then and there before "losing it" and dotting the arrogant thicket running the course....

I have retained friendship with several BBKA members of other local associations of a far more liberal attitude, who confirm that the particular association I have in mind are "well known for it"......

What I want to see are proper intro courses that deal with "common threads" like disease recognition, and a proper and unbiased summary of differing hive types and management methods.......

I will take issue with "they're selling an ideology created around bees" - what I and many other (more) natural beekeepers do say to people when they mention the troubles that bees are having is that bees are "the canaries in our coalmine", and that it is rather difficult to put things right for them without taking into account the whole of the natural world - what affects bees affects all insects, often the availability of insects affect pollination, and bird life - and it all comes back to how we treat our environment - it's all linked, whether we like it or not........ I think it's actually impossible to view bees in isolation, because that's not how they live.........

 

[Nellie]

Really? I don't see much evidence of that on here but I guess they aren't members.

Chris

Not much representation on a forum that [used to] pride itself on being anti BBKA and anti association? I can't think why that would be.