Why is no new Queen made instead of a laying worker?

[Ivor Kemp]

Actually the question isn't very well-worded but:

Given that we know that a swarm is instigated by worker bees losing a strong enough scent of their Queen (usually by overcrowding) which stimulates them to lay Queen cells.

Then why does the same not apply when the colony lose a Queen, for some reason, with the result that a laying worker takes over with disastrous results?

You would have thought that the same scent loss when the Queen was lost would cause the workers to start laying Queen cells instead of a worker taking over so to speak. It would seem the best for the colony and nature would prevail this to be what happens.

Any ideas of have I missed something here?

 

[victor meldrew]

Actually the question isn't very well-worded but:

Given that we know that a swarm is instigated by worker bees losing a strong enough scent of their Queen (usually by overcrowding) which stimulates them to lay Queen cells.

Then why does the same not apply when the colony lose a Queen, for some reason, with the result that a laying worker takes over with disastrous results?

You would have thought that the same scent loss when the Queen was lost would cause the workers to start laying Queen cells instead of a worker taking over so to speak. It would seem the best for the colony and nature would prevail this to be what happens.

Any ideas of have I missed something here?

Missed something? well! perhaps .
The usual route to laying workers is down to normal swarming going wrong !
What happens is ,colony swarms , then casts and casts again . finally ,the last virgin hatched is either duff or gets lost or weather delays mating until outside the window of viability.
Having no Queen and no material to create one, the workers (by now not under the influence of Queen pheromone) start to lay .

Bee colonies are lost because of this both in Feral colonies and managed ones .
I happens more often in managed ones because people practicing swarm control usually restrict the queen cells to one , should this be lost , then laying workers result .

john Wilkinson

 

[Steve Dyer]

Err, I think that usually when a queen goes awol the normal reaction of a colony is to make an emergency queen cell using a freshly laid egg. If you find a queenless colony with laying workers it is probably because they have tried to make an emergency queen cell and failed, or the new queen didn't return from a mating flight.
Alternatively sometimes a queen fails and starts to lay only unfertilised drone eggs so there isn't a fertile one available to replace her. Laying workers only occur as far as I know if there has been a prolonged state of queenlessness.

 

[Ellem]

I'm not quite sure what you're asking here.

A worker will only ever lay unfertilised eggs (i.e. drones). So if they are queenless and there is no eggs or young enough larvae they cannot produce a female to become a new queen.

Or did you mean about them building a queen cell instead, if there is eggs and young enough larvae in the hive?

 

[victor meldrew]

Err, I think that usually when a queen goes awol the normal reaction of a colony is to make an emergency queen cell using a freshly laid egg. If you find a queenless colony with laying workers it is probably because they have tried to make an emergency queen cell and failed, or the new queen didn't return from a mating flight.
Alternatively sometimes a queen fails and starts to lay only unfertilised drone eggs so there isn't a fertile one available to replace her. Laying workers only occur as far as I know if there has been a prolonged state of queenlessness.

, I've seen 80 days quoted

 

[Erichalfbee]

Actually the question isn't very well-worded but:

Given that we know that a swarm is instigated by worker bees losing a strong enough scent of their Queen (usually by overcrowding) which stimulates them to lay Queen cells.

Then why does the same not apply when the colony lose a Queen, for some reason, with the result that a laying worker takes over with disastrous results?

But it does. A queenless colony will try to make a new queen and providing there are larvae three days or younger they will succeed after a fashion.
Laying workers appear when the hive has been queenless for some time, though I read somewhere that every hive has laying workers but their eggs are removed by the other bees.

 

[drstitson]

"Given that we know that a swarm is instigated by worker bees losing a strong enough scent of their Queen"

you're thinking supercedure there.

 

[oliver90owner]

Given that we know that a swarm is instigated by worker bees losing a strong enough scent of their Queen (usually by overcrowding)

Do we? Overcrowding (as in 'insufficient space' is one thing, 'pheromone dilution' or even pheromone reduction (from the queen ) are others. All may well result in swarming but all are different causes really.

when the Queen was lost would cause the workers to start laying Queen cells

If you mean 'laying', it never happens. Workers are never mated (they are not fully developed sexually) so they normally lay haploid eggs, given any oportunity. There can be laying workers in a colony if the queen pheromone is weak, but the workers would not normally allow these to develop.

RAB

 

[victor meldrew]

"Given that we know that a swarm is instigated by worker bees losing a strong enough scent of their Queen"you're thinking supercedure there.

Swarming is an anticipated action , a means of propagation !
Supercedure is the response to a failing Queen.

John Wilkinson

 

[huntsman666]

Ivor, worker bees can lay eggs but this is supressed by an existing queen's pheromone. When this is lost, workers can turn to egg laying but because they have not been mated, will only lay unfertilized drone eggs. Sometimes even with the queen pheromone present and strong, the odd worker will still lay an egg but the other workers destroy this.

Google 'parthenogenesis in the honeybee' for more information.

 

[Bcrazy]

Hi John,
I did go for two months without a queen in one of my colonies and not once did any workers start to lay, which i found most distressing as all indications showed i had a queen somewhere. I tried a frame of eggs (Nothing) a sealed queen cell (Nothing emerged and flew off?) then a heavy smoking with a sprinkling of caster sugar on frames to introduce the mated queen. This queen lasted one day and never to be seen again. i left it for two weeks before i looked again.Still had nothing as i expected at least laying workers but no not a bloody thing.
I carefully checked all i could of the bees for a queen even a stunted queen all to no avail. I new the answer a swarm! I introduced a swarm through newspaper method , all seem OK as the bees were settled in. I could not find the bloody queen. Still nothing so in the end i destroyed all bees and never used that hive again.

Sorry its so long.

Mo no bees

 

[Ivor Kemp]

Brilliant and really interesting!

Thanks for all your replies.