Why did they die?

[Monbees]

Having read under another thread that one should be concerned if one hive is not flying when all the rest (three others) are, temp between 12 and 14, I decide to look inside that one hive today. As I suspected, all dead.

The cluster had mostly moved up from the brood box to the super (brood and a half). I've attached some photos, showing bees dead on the floor and some on various frames in the brood box, and the small cluster dead beneath fondant. No brood and no apparent stores. The fondant was damp, as were the contents of some of the frames. The hive is old version Abelo with additional kingspan under the roof, so well insulated. I do wonder if I should not have left the varroa inspection board in over winter, whether this contributed to dampness.

Raining again, so haven't had a chance to inspect the dead bees to see if queen is present.

 

[enrico]

Having read under another thread that one should be concerned if one hive is not flying when all the rest (three others) are, temp between 12 and 14, I decide to look inside that one hive today. As I suspected, all dead.

The cluster had mostly moved up from the brood box to the super (brood and a half). I've attached some photos, showing bees dead on the floor and some on various frames in the brood box, and the small cluster dead beneath fondant. No brood and no apparent stores. The fondant was damp, as were the contents of some of the frames. The hive is old version Abelo with additional kingspan under the roof, so well insulated. I do wonder if I should not have left the varroa inspection board in over winter, whether this contributed to dampness.

Raining again, so haven't had a chance to inspect the dead bees to see if queen is present.

No sign of any food! Starvation. They never found the fondant

 

[drex]

Agree. Heads in cells. Fondant is not always a saviour. They prefer the food to be in the comb, where it is more readily accessible . That's why I do my winter feeding in Autumn. A good lesson for next year. At least you have another couple of hives, which are hopefully ok.

 

[Buzzo]

same as my issue last year when i lost the lot -starvation.

 

[Boston Bees]

Fondant is not always a saviour. They prefer the food to be in the comb, where it is more readily accessible .

This is very true, as is the advice to get the food into them before winter hits.

Heads in cells doesn't mean much though - that's just how bees cluster.

The honest answer to the question "why did they die" is, of course, that we can't be 100% sure.

1. Varroa probably played a part (it does in most deaths in some way or another, even with the best treatment regimes).
2. Related to varroa, viruses may have been present
3. Numbers may have been too small as well. Even including the dead bees on the floor there aren't many bees here at all. The cold weather may have just been too much for a small cluster to handle.
4. They didn't have enough food in the combs, obviously, and as has been said, bees can't cluster on a slab of fondant (not properly cluster, anyway)
5. Condensation from the fondant block may have been an issue. I use fondant a lot and it is a double edged sword. If it isn't in contact with the cluster then it can get very wet and start dripping. I took an absolutely soaking block of fondant off a hive the other day, which in hindsight should never have been on it because the bees weren't in the top box. Personally I don't leave inspection boards in, which may or may not make condensation worse, but I don't think that would have made a huge difference to this situation.
6. I can't see any brood, so perhaps the queen just failed a few months ago.
7. etc etc

Onwards and upwards. Sorry for your loss!

 

[beeno]

Well, it was a very strange season down here. Very mild and lots of flying, so I can imagine late brooding which means that they will have gobbled up stores and the winter bees being worn out prematurely. As a matter of interest how many seams of bees and frames of stores did you have putting them to bed?

 

[Ian123]

Judging by those frames they simply starved. When you added the fondant did you heft them.

 

[Allotment Pete]

It may be my eyes but is that bee poo on the frames? If so may be a sign of nosema which would of weakened them.

There also isn't a lot of bees on the floor, were they a big colony going into winter as the cold snap last week may have been enough to see them off if they couldn't heat the brood and a half up?

 

[Monbees]

No sign of any food! Starvation. They never found the fondant

The fondant was immediately above the cluster, with a 50p size hole nibbled through which I assumed meant they had been eating it. It was quite a strong hive going into autumn, although the colony swarmed quite late (august). I caught and housed the swarm, which has overwintered well.

 

[Monbees]

It may be my eyes but is that bee poo on the frames? If so may be a sign of nosema which would of weakened them.

There also isn't a lot of bees on the floor, were they a big colony going into winter as the cold snap last week may have been enough to see them off if they couldn't heat the brood and a half up?

This is the first season I have tried brood and a half and I wonder if it would have been better to reduce them to just a brood box so not to have so much space to heat up. I'd say the colony size was a good average, not huge.

Don't think bee poo on the frames but I will check tomorrow.

 

[Erichalfbee]

This is the first season I have tried brood and a half and I wonder if it would have been better to reduce them to just a brood box so not to have so much space to heat up. I'd say the colony size was a good average, not huge.

Don't think bee poo on the frames but I will check tomorrow.

Did you say they swarmed in late August and you left them in brood and a half?
Did you check they had a laying queen before you prepped them for winter?

 

[pargyle]

Isolation starvation classic - those frames are stripped absolutely clean ... Bees with heads right down in the cells. With a small colony, (uncertain as to whether there was a viable queen in there) so may not have built up enough in autumn coupled with cold weather they would have been reluctant to break cluster even to get at fondant immediately above them, Brood and a half too big a space to keep warm, a small cluster won't move and were probably chilled so not even enough energy in a torpid state to go and find the fondant.

Sad ... lesson learnt, move on. Anyone who hasn't starved a colony at some point has never really kept bees ... you only do it once.

 

[beeno]

I think Erica may be on the right track here. It looks like a few drone cappings in worker cells. Virgin did not mate properly after swarming in Aug and the colony has dwindled.

 

[Boston Bees]

I think Erica may be on the right track here.

Just between you and me, her name isn't Erica ....

 

[masterBK]

Beeno and Erichalfbee You are both absolutely spot one. The drone cappings are indeed the main clue. The worry is why did most of the other posters not spot this. Reading the combs is in my opinion a major part of being able to successfully keep bees. The lack of stores and resulting starvation are secondary. With a drone laying queen there would be no new workers, so no new foragers or undertaker bees (so dead accumulate on floor) and no winter bees produced. The dwindling population ate what little stores they had (or got robbed out) and died. Also you would probably also find dead drones on the floor board ( I think I can see some dead bees with large eyes) at a time of year when you wouldn't expect any

 

[pargyle]

There's only four or five capped drone cells ... they could be the result of a failing queen and a drone layer but would this not have been noticed in the last few inspections after August ?

It was certainly a weak colony for some reason and that will have contributed to their demise but there's absolutely nothing left in the cells around where the final cluster was .. there are signs of uncapped nectar in amongst the cells of pollen which they did not get to and with fondant above them that they didn't use ...

I can't see a preponderance of drones in the pile of dead bees ...

We may never know the whole story. Lack of stores in the frames have contributed ... weak colony ... has contributed ... failing late swarm queen ? May have contributed ?. ... It's a dead out. **** happens... move on.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Just between you and me, her name isn't Erica ....

I answer to a lot of names....often Oi!

 

[ericbeaumont]

Beeno and Erichalfbee You are both absolutely spot one. The drone cappings are indeed the main clue.

There are also large wax crumbs on the mesh. Mouse?
Certainly poo or dysentery on combs.
If the nest was in the brood box in autumn that box would have been better off up top; wouldn't have prevented starvation or the failing queen, but if all was well it would have contained nest heat under the insulated crownboard.

 

[Erichalfbee]

There are also large wax crumbs on the mesh. Mouse?
Certainly poo or dysentery on combs.
If the nest was in the brood box in autumn that box would have been better off up top; wouldn't have prevented starvation or the failing queen, but if all was well it would have contained nest heat under the insulated crownboard.

My point was that a colony swarming in late August wouldn’t be viable anyway. Like Philip says. It’s dead, learn and move on.

 

[Heather]

I lost 2, and can only suspect varroa. Were on 8 frames of bees going into Winter. Super under brood box.. No obvious varroa problems with bee presentation.
Worrying as I did oxalic sublimation in December. Dropped about 150 varroa. There were hardly any bees on the frames and 1" deep bodies on the floor. Queen seen amongst them. Food stores were plentiful. I struggled to lift the brood box when clearing up. I wonder if the treatment infiltrates the cluster..