What is happening to our queens

[B+.]

Is there any evidence that this may be possible?

As a rule of thumb, I don't usually begin queen rearing before 1st May (often a week or two later) - That is in Bedfordshire, NOT in the Borders. So, my initial reaction would be to agree with you - highly unlikely!

However, never say "Never" - to quote from a popular film "nature will find a way".

If people believe there are enough mature, healthy drones available, they could use the same technique that is used in instrumental insemination to determine if they are mature (https://youtu.be/iVjLkUVt-Lg ). If the endophallus remains clear, the drone is immature and is unable to fertilize a queen.

 

[masterBK]

I have been keeping bees for many more years than Roger P and have not noticed any unexplainable queen problems in the last ten years than we didn't have decades ago ( I started beekeeping in 1958). Maybe just been lucky. I agree with Clive that weather often the explanation like in 2012 when we had many more unsuccessful matings than usual but the weather was poor for many, many weeks and colonies threw out their drones even dragging them out of their cells. I took photos of the drones dumped on the paving slabs by two of the hive. There were few drones available for mating for much of that summer. However it is likely that Varroa is affecting the number of fertile drones in managed colonies and by also by reducing the number of feral colonies but in my patch doesn't seem to have made a significant impact on queen performance in my colonies.

 

[B+.]

Its the same in other spheres. We breed 'a rare dog breed', and we utilise tests and breeding values and access a very large international database - the vast majority, especially in the uk I notice, do not. Many just mate with "the dog down the road" only with the intention of multiplying numbers, not with betterment or conservation in mind.

I think there may be a fear/misunderstanding that if genetic selection focuses only on increasing production of honey for example, (i.e one thing.) there is a risk of increasing problems related to high production levels. A wider perspective that encompasses both production and other traits, even though they may not be a primary breeding goal of the selection scheme needs to be made plain and may help. Who knows ?

This is exactly the approach taken when breeding honeybees. The main traits are (in no particular order):
1. Honey production
2. Aggression toward the examiner
3. Stability on the comb
4. Swarming
5. Varroa population growth

Although the programme assigns default weightings of 15% to traits 1-4 and 40% to trait 5, breeders are able to define their own breeding goals and change the default weightings. Essentially, this means that the default breeding goal is not honey production but the ability to manage growth in the varroa infestation.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I don't think pointing out the equal importance of the male line is at all contentious, all caring breeders of most creatures would take that as a 'given'.

I agree...but...why is it that beekeepers pay so little attention to drones?

Because they buy in queens, drones are irrelevant?

Was that the debate between Roger Patterson and Clive de Bruyn? .

No - I wouldn't put Clive in the 'pompous ballon' category.

 

[B+.]

Buying in (good quality) queens is actually a very useful way of improving your stock.
In the short-term, the workers she produces will be far better than the local monrels.
In the longer term, her drones improve the gene-pool by mating with virgin queens.
Drones are never irrelevant.

 

[Swarm]

Buying in (good quality) queens is actually a very useful way of improving your stock.
In the short-term, the workers she produces will be far better than the local monrels.
In the longer term, her drones improve the gene-pool by mating with virgin queens.
Drones are never irrelevant.

You are assuming that the majority of beekeepers are following serious or even some sort of breeding plan.
I would argue there are far more muddling along with what they are given and listen to all the rubbish advice being handed out. One example is drone culling, it's still being used as a part of IPM, I wrote an article for the association newsletter entitled 'Love your Drones'. The message is slowly filtering through.
Then you have the beekeeper with big ideas (read no idea) tries a bit of that this year and a bit of this the next. Even if they hit on something they are happy with, it only improves their stock, it does nothing but stir up the local genetics. I am currently dealing with the result of buckfasts being brought into the area, looks like all my 2019 queens will need culling.
In other words, the virgin queens who mated with their drones have been ruined. He did say he had to move colonies from his garden so I'm hoping they've all gone as I know their destination is far enough away.
I've not had bees buzzing me for years!

 

[B+.]

You are assuming that the majority of beekeepers are following serious or even some sort of breeding plan.
I would argue there are far more muddling along with what they are given and listen to all the rubbish advice being handed out. One example is drone culling, it's still being used as a part of IPM, I wrote an article for the association newsletter entitled 'Love your Drones'. The message is slowly filtering through.
Then you have the beekeeper with big ideas (read no idea) tries a bit of that this year and a bit of this the next. Even if they hit on something they are happy with, it only improves their stock, it does nothing but stir up the local genetics. I am currently dealing with the result of buckfasts being brought into the area, looks like all my 2019 queens will need culling.
In other words, the virgin queens who mated with their drones have been ruined. He did say he had to move colonies from his garden so I'm hoping they've all gone as I know their destination is far enough away.
I've not had bees buzzing me for years!

It sounds like we are agreeing that drones are actually VERY important. Whether they be to beekeepers muddling through without a plan (not my words) or those working within a defined breeding programme.
The problem is that we don't have licensing or movement control here. That affects all of us in different ways - but I have found the only way to be sure I have control over the mating of my bees is to use instrumental insemination/island mating stations. I can't control other peoples bees unless they think the same way I do and join me. The bees around here are rubbish - a mixture of every type of bee, and some of no particular type at all - so there is a very real benefit to using control mated queens. These, at least, are productive, healthy and docile!

 

[Swarm]

I've never said they are not but people do not bring in queens for their drones, they do it for emergency reasons to replace losses, deal with problem colonies, nobody ever told me they bought whatever queen for her drones.
In general there is no thought other than solving their problem.

 

[pargyle]

I've never said they are not but people do not bring in queens for their drones, they do it for emergency reasons to replace losses, deal with problem colonies, nobody ever told me they bought whatever queen for her drones.
In general there is no thought other than solving their problem.

Or sometimes because they have been told they should replace their queens every year with new ones !

 

[mintmoth]

I've only kept bees for five years, but in that time have often wondered how I could improve the drones my virgin queens may mate with. I can find very little information, even on this site, as to how it is done. Do you keep hives purely for drone production, and how do you decide which queens produce good quality drones? What percentage of drones is needed from an apiary to be reasonably sure that open mated queens will mate with drones you have bred? Are bigger drones better all round, or just more able to catch up with a queen? So many questions, so few answers I can find.

 

[pnkemp]

Well my local BKA has a "grand plan" to flood an area with hives where the queens have been good, in order to produce an area where if you take a queen to be mated there is a good chance that the drones will be from that "good" stock.
Not sure how far along they are, was mentioned to me as I was busy signing up all the new member paperwork before everything ground to a halt.

Longer term they are hoping to get in some training on II.

 

[B+.]

Well my local BKA has a "grand plan" to flood an area with hives where the queens have been good, in order to produce an area where if you take a queen to be mated there is a good chance that the drones will be from that "good" stock.
Not sure how far along they are, was mentioned to me as I was busy signing up all the new member paperwork before everything ground to a halt.

Longer term they are hoping to get in some training on II.

If all the queens that were used to "seed" the area with drones were sisters, that's a good start - even if they're open-mated. The workers aren't really important if they're being used as sires. It's the drones that count and, although they may have different mothers, they should come from the same grandmother. This will improve the average performance.
If you select a different (unrelated) grandmother colony each year, you'll keep the inbreeding low too.

 

[B+.]

I've only kept bees for five years, but in that time have often wondered how I could improve the drones my virgin queens may mate with. I can find very little information, even on this site, as to how it is done. Do you keep hives purely for drone production, and how do you decide which queens produce good quality drones? What percentage of drones is needed from an apiary to be reasonably sure that open mated queens will mate with drones you have bred? Are bigger drones better all round, or just more able to catch up with a queen? So many questions, so few answers I can find.

Even the drone mothers should have proven themselves in prior years so they go through the same testing/selection as your queen producing colonies do. This is important because you need to be confident that the drones you are going to provide are worth the effort and will improve the performance of future colonies.
Then you can provide drone comb to get as many sealed drones as possible. You could use surrogate colonies to feed them once they are sealed but you'd need to get rid of all the colonies own drones/drone brood first. A better way is to rear lots of daughter queens from the selected drone-producing queen and use them to produce the drones.
I want absolute certainty of the lineage of the drones (they will drift from one colony to another if they are allowed to fly) so I mark them as soon as they emerge (https://twitter.com/i/status/1130128276876406787 ). If you aren't doing instrumental insemination, you don't need to do that though. The important thing is that they are well fed and healthy. They have to come from strong, healthy colonies for the workers to care for the drones. I generally give 1-2 Langstroth drone combs per colony so as not to overload the workers (as they still have to care for worker brood too) and have 20-30 colonies per apiary every mile or two apart. This video explains how it's done on island mating stations (https://youtu.be/b_vcpRnYhHg ). Since there is less competition, it says they work on a 1:50 ratio but I happen to know its probably half that (the video is quite old so things have changed a bit). If you want a more general overview of breeding programmes, this is a good place to start (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319060455_The_Basic_Concept_of_Honey_Bee_Breeding_Programs ).

 

[For want of a better word]

Or sometimes because they have been told they should replace their queens every year with new ones !

All such a worry... particularly when a beekeeper who lives in an area in which it has been very well publicised as a voluntary native bee breeding area.... imports so called "Buckfast" bees from Gozo and sells on to his BBKA branch at a knock down £27 each .... because colonies have to be requeened every year!!

Yeghes da

 

[enrico]

I have been taking the daughters of my good queen for years. The sad thing is when you know there are hives nearby with aggressive bees. In Shropshire I was fairly isolated. Here in Somerset it is a different matter and each queen has to be tested for aggression due to the mixed mating.
E

 

[Swarm]

I have been taking the daughters of my good queen for years. The sad thing is when you know there are hives nearby with aggressive bees. In Shropshire I was fairly isolated. Here in Somerset it is a different matter and each queen has to be tested for aggression due to the mixed mating.
E

Yet if all those neighbouring beekeepers worked together you could be in god's pocket. The sad fact is beekeeping is a selfish business.

 

[B+.]

Yet if all those neighbouring beekeepers worked together you could be in god's pocket. The sad fact is beekeeping is a selfish business.

That really depends on your point of view.
Often it's an excuse for the "do as I say" people....which is fine if you really do know what you're talking about, but, most people don't.

 

[Swarm]

Well my local BKA has a "grand plan" to flood an area with hives where the queens have been good, in order to produce an area where if you take a queen to be mated there is a good chance that the drones will be from that "good" stock.
Not sure how far along they are, was mentioned to me as I was busy signing up all the new member paperwork before everything ground to a halt.

Longer term they are hoping to get in some training on II.

Good for them, with a number of like minded beekeepers, things are much easier and the results far more rewarding. With more people on board with the first part of the plan, I'd not bother with the second part. Natural matings are far better and healthier, artificial means has its place if a species is threatened with extinction, other than that it's just invasive and unnecessary.

 

[Swarm]

That really depends on your point of view.
Often it's an excuse for the "do as I say" people....which is fine if you really do know what you're talking about, but, most people don't.

Tripe. If neighbouring beekeepers work together with a common aim, who is barking orders?
As I posted above, far more rewarding and far better for the well being of our bees than the exploitative, invasive methods you use.

 

[B+.]

Tripe. If neighbouring beekeepers work together with a common aim, who is barking orders?
As I posted above, far more rewarding and far better for the well being of our bees than the exploitative, invasive methods you use.

....and there we have it. It's all well and good so long as "like minded" beekeepers follow YOUR grand plan. The problem is: a lot of people don't agree with it.