What is happening to our queens

[rolande]

I try to keep an open mind because the odds that someone out there has come up with a solution that has so far eluded me are quite high.

 

[madasafish]

I didn't know you were a stoic, Mike. Thats almost a verbatim quote from Marcus Aurelius:
“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.”

Not a reader of Aurelius. You were obviously better educated than I.

 

[Apple]

Are you treatment free?

Not me
I got my Astra Zenica *** as soon as I could!

 

[B+.]

Not a reader of Aurelius. You were obviously better educated than I.

I'll let you know when I'm finished.
I'm interested in lots of things so always learning something new.

 

[Somerford]

I have been keeping bees for many more years than Roger P and have not noticed any unexplainable queen problems in the last ten years than we didn't have decades ago ( I started beekeeping in 1958). Maybe just been lucky. I agree with Clive that weather often the explanation like in 2012 when we had many more unsuccessful matings than usual but the weather was poor for many, many weeks and colonies threw out their drones even dragging them out of their cells. I took photos of the drones dumped on the paving slabs by two of the hive. There were few drones available for mating for much of that summer. However it is likely that Varroa is affecting the number of fertile drones in managed colonies and by also by reducing the number of feral colonies but in my patch doesn't seem to have made a significant impact on queen performance in my colonies.

I have to concur. I find the best queen rearing years or the years that produce the best queens that last and the most productive colonies are a direct result of healthy drones, lots of them, and low varroa loading.

more than anything (apart from poor weather) I am convinced that varroa is the cause of most of the queen mating issues and therefore failure

 

[beeno]

Lol I compared it in terms of honey production/size and it certainly wasn’t obviously ailing, it had received the same treatments as others Autumn and winter. Let’s just say it wasn’t quite up to speed as others but certainly strong enough to make a decent cell raiser. I’ve also been raising/grafting queens before varroa arrived I think I did my first batch with lady called Dinah Sweet aged 12 I’ve seen the odd crumpled wing queen but never in the numbers from that batch.................” Also don’t jump into queen cells as
repelled by scent of royal jelly”.......Any evidence for that?

The 5P's. Queen Rearing in the Sustainable Apiary - Michael Palmer. Can't help you with the second assertion as I did not make it.

 

[Ian123]

The 5P's. Queen Rearing in the Sustainable Apiary - Michael Palmer. Can't help you with the second assertion as I did not make it.

You’ve lost me

 

[Brian Bush]

I didn't know you were a stoic, Mike. Thats almost a verbatim quote from Marcus Aurelius:
“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.”

I like the quote from Moliere's Tartuffe. I think it applies to many on this forum
'Everything he says an Oracle, everything he does a Miracle'

 

[Brian Bush]

I'll let you know when I'm finished.
I'm interested in lots of things so always learning something new.

My Grandfather used to say: 'Its a bad day when you have not learnt something new!'

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Although I've never been much of a fan of RP I tend to think that it's right for him to add his thoughts to the page, presumably that's what Cushman expected and as he's the chosen successor then it's up to him. At least he had permission rather than appointing himself as custodian....

Big difference between custodian and self appointed editor

 

[Beesnaturally]

Are you treatment free?

Yes.

 

[Beesnaturally]

If you have an education in evolutionary biology, I'd expect you to be able to answer that question yourself.
Quantitative genetics relies on statistical evidence to make statements about a population. If you take a sample from a colony, how well does that sample represent the colony? How well does the colony represent the area? If it doesn't, you'd have difficulty in using the statistics with any degree of confidence. If you open mate, and your area is unstable (via introduction or migration of "alien" colonies), it's unlikely that you could be sure of the next generation so heritability of specific traits would be low. Heritability of some traits is low even with controlled breeding so you'd need to examine lots of colonies to see if the phenotype was consistent with expectations.
I notice that you have a not insubstantial number of colonies, but this still falls well below the number necessary to breed for specific traits without observing inbreeding depression. The programme I participate in examines many thousands of colonies of known lineage each year. It has been quite successful as this article shows but it is a long-term process.

I'm sure what you say is true, but it doesnt take anything away from what I said.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Oooh - that would be a valuable data set, given you don't treat. Would you be willing to share statistics on your last 10 years of winter survival?

I don't collect stats, but my memory tells me its been variable but improving.

 

[Mint Bee]

as an educated biologist surely you can see that with no data you present an opinion only, a personal theory. intellectual discussion is no substitute for a peer reviewed publication

 

[rolande]

Oooh - that would be a valuable data set, given you don't treat. Would you be willing to share statistics on your last 10 years of winter survival?

Winter survival isn't the important question here. Long term colony survival is the big one, if we're interested. Then, have they survived as fixed units or had their varroa levels reduced by swarming or being split?

The owner has certainly increased his numbers.

 

[rolande]

Big difference between custodian and self appointed editor

Very much, perhaps that's why the self appointed chap didn't get very far in his attempt!

 

[Murox]

Winter survival isn't the important question here. Long term colony survival is the big one, if we're interested. Then, have they survived as fixed units or had their varroa levels reduced by swarming or being split?

The owner has certainly increased his numbers.

Swarming (brood break) reduces the varroa load - then left to their own devices aren't bees likely to become more swarmy over time as a defence against varroa ?

 

[Boston Bees]

Winter survival isn't the important question here. Long term colony survival is the big one, if we're interested. Then, have they survived as fixed units or had their varroa levels reduced by swarming or being split?

The owner has certainly increased his numbers.

Increasing numbers is easy in beekeeping. Just collect swarms, or make splits. Once you have more than a few hives, it's NOT increasing numbers that's difficult (assuming you take responsibility for your own swarms).

You can lose 30 percent to varroa each year and still grow your numbers significantly. Doesn't make it a sensible strategy.

I agree with you about long term survival being the key metric, but not in the same box. That's not how bees work. The aim of a colony is not to remain in the same tree for 10 years. It is to multiply and colonise many other trees. For example, Seeley counted wild hives in the Arnott forest and found that numbers were stable over a long time period, but they were in different trees than the original colonies.

For honeybees, winter survival is everything, because it grants the possibility of spreading their genetics in the spring ...

 

[rolande]

Swarming (brood break) reduces the varroa load - then left to their own devices aren't bees likely to become more swarmy over time as a defence against varroa ?

Which is of course part of what happened with the Primorski bees.

Is that what's happening with BNs bees? Or maybe there are different mechanisms at work or are they're not surviving long-term as individual colonies.

edit: @Boston Bees yeah, hence my comment about long-term survival being the important thing

 

[madasafish]

I don't collect stats, but my memory tells me its been variable but improving.

I regret to say it but memory tends to forget the bad and recall the good.

I make no claims to be anything but I DO keep statistics on honey sales : both weights and revenues (the latter for HMRC)