What is happening to our queens

[elainemary]

I found this which suggests that queens are infected by their workers during their lifetime Patterns of viral infection in honey bee queens

Also by drones on mating flights as found in high levels in spermatheca. Seems they were carrying the virus and didn’t have overt symptoms of DWV. Interesting that mature queens had higher levels than virgins suggesting transmission by workers through feeding. Thanks for posting.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes you’re right, thanks for sharing this. I wrongly assumed they didn’t start feeding until mature as the explanation why they don’t seem to infect queens. I think the reason they don’t enter queen cells is varroa ecological adaptation not to, as they don’t mature in time so desiccate. Along with the royal jelly repulsion.

That's the trouble with assuming something then saying it's fact.
Maybe you don't get reproducing varroa in queen cells because they drown? How long is it's snorkel or whatever you call it? Maybe you don't get too many in queen cells because there are thousands of other cells to choose from?

 

[elainemary]

@elainemary So what is it about the queens royal jelly that repels the mites ??

Sorry don’t know just aware from literature that it repels. Compared to 5th instar larva in workers which give off a volatile compound that attracts varroa into cells just before capping.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Also by drones on mating flights as found in high levels in spermatheca. Seems they were carrying the virus and didn’t have overt symptoms of DWV. Interesting that mature queens had higher levels than virgins suggesting transmission by workers through feeding. Thanks for posting.

Have a read of this Patterns of viral infection in honey bee queens
They did find DWV in spermatheca but not much...

 

[B+.]

Yes you’re right, thanks for sharing this. I wrongly assumed they didn’t start feeding until mature as the explanation why they don’t seem to infect queens. I think the reason they don’t enter queen cells is varroa ecological adaptation not to, as they don’t mature in time so desiccate. Along with the royal jelly repulsion.

As you say, the amount of RJ in queen cells does seem to repel varroa mites, but not completely. This article describes how queen cell infestation is a function of the colony size (i.e. open worker/drone brood available to the mites). The longer development time in worker, and drone in particular, seems to be the reason why varroa prefer these to queen cells.
Anyone who has ever inspected the tray beneath an open mesh floor (using a microscope/magnifying glass) will have noticed immature (white) varroa mites. These are younger mites that didn't have time to mature when the honeybee left its cell.

 

[BigAshW]

Maybe you don't get too many in queen cells because there are thousands of other cells to choose from?

I was musing on this as a possible (although not the only) factor given that the number of QC would be a very small percentage of the overall number of cells available.

So would it be a consideration to OA vape a Q- cell starter before introducing grafts since the only open cells in that box will be QC giving the mites no other choice but to jump in?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Plenty of papers out there showing Horizontal transmission of DWV to developing queens
Plenty of papers out there showing vertical transmission
Also studies out there showing DWV in Royal Jelly
So it's not as cut and dried as some would like to maintain.

 

[user 20297]

So it's not as cut and dried as some would like to maintain.

We could use that as the motto of this forum.

 

[Ian123]

I was musing on this as a possible (although not the only) factor given that the number of QC would be a very small percentage of the overall number of cells available.

So would it be a consideration to OA vape a Q- cell starter before introducing grafts since the only open cells in that box will be QC giving the mites no other choice but to jump in?

Yes I now treat all cell raisers prior to inserting grafts. It’s simple easy costs pennies and MAYBE does some good.

 

[Into the lions den]

Yes I now treat all cell raisers prior to inserting grafts. It’s simple easy costs pennies and MAYBE does some good.

Just watch what you are saying...OA treatment now only costs pennies if you are breaking the law. You SHOULD now be paying 35 to 50 times the price to an entity that has paid the VMD to licence their product.

Britain the Banana Republic.

 

[Beesnaturally]

so no evidence to support your 'theory' then?

As I say an education in evolutionary biology, and good deal of time studying its application to bees, including correspondence with some scientific heavyweights. Then 80 colonies built up over 10 years on an 'live or let die' 'management's regime. So (bog-standard orthodox, scientific) 'theory' plus money where mouth is experience. Does that count?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So that's a no then

 

[Erichalfbee]

Just plain old education I'm afraid.

As I say an education in evolutionary biology, and good deal of time studying its application to bees, including correspondence with some scientific heavyweights. Then 80 colonies built up over 10 years on an 'live or let die' 'management's regime. So (bog-standard orthodox, scientific) 'theory' plus money where mouth is experience. Does that count?

Are you treatment free?

 

[B+.]

As I say an education in evolutionary biology, and good deal of time studying its application to bees, including correspondence with some scientific heavyweights. Then 80 colonies built up over 10 years on an 'live or let die' 'management's regime. So (bog-standard orthodox, scientific) 'theory' plus money where mouth is experience. Does that count?

If you have an education in evolutionary biology, I'd expect you to be able to answer that question yourself.
Quantitative genetics relies on statistical evidence to make statements about a population. If you take a sample from a colony, how well does that sample represent the colony? How well does the colony represent the area? If it doesn't, you'd have difficulty in using the statistics with any degree of confidence. If you open mate, and your area is unstable (via introduction or migration of "alien" colonies), it's unlikely that you could be sure of the next generation so heritability of specific traits would be low. Heritability of some traits is low even with controlled breeding so you'd need to examine lots of colonies to see if the phenotype was consistent with expectations.
I notice that you have a not insubstantial number of colonies, but this still falls well below the number necessary to breed for specific traits without observing inbreeding depression. The programme I participate in examines many thousands of colonies of known lineage each year. It has been quite successful as this article shows but it is a long-term process.

 

[Boston Bees]

Then 80 colonies built up over 10 years on an 'live or let die' 'management's regime. So (bog-standard orthodox, scientific) 'theory' plus money where mouth is experience. Does that count?

Oooh - that would be a valuable data set, given you don't treat. Would you be willing to share statistics on your last 10 years of winter survival?

 

[Ian123]

Just watch what you are saying...OA treatment now only costs pennies if you are breaking the law. You SHOULD now be paying 35 to 50 times the price to an entity that has paid the VMD to licence their product.

Britain the Banana Republic.

Thks I think.......but I didn’t state what form of oxalic and I didn’t say how many pennies of course!

 

[Frizzaldo]

Yes you’re right, thanks for sharing this. I wrongly assumed they didn’t start feeding until mature as the explanation why they don’t seem to infect queens. I think the reason they don’t enter queen cells is varroa ecological adaptation not to, as they don’t mature in time so desiccate. Along with the royal jelly repulsion.

So you were making assumptions but stating them as fact?
this is one of the main problems with beekeeping, these ‘facts‘ then get repeated and the misinformation spreads

 

[madasafish]

So you were making assumptions but stating them as fact?
this is one of the main problems with beekeeping, these ‘facts‘ then get repeated and the misinformation spreads

I have a very simple approach.

I treat all claims as lies, exaggerations or missspokes . Especially when the the claimant - when challenged - gives no facts.

 

[Into the lions den]

Thks I think.......but I didn’t state what form of oxalic and I didn’t say how many pennies of course!

I should have included the smiley that was on my face as I typed it... was being a mixture of humorous and facetious. the latter at the officiousness of our powers that be,

 

[B+.]

I have a very simple approach.

I treat all claims as lies, exaggerations or missspokes . Especially when the the claimant - when challenged - gives no facts.

I didn't know you were a stoic, Mike. Thats almost a verbatim quote from Marcus Aurelius:
“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.”