What is happening to our queens

[Ian123]

On varroa 'preferring' drone cells, are they sentient enough to choose which cells they go into or do they enter all cells (including QCs) but are more successful in drone cells due to the longer incubation period?

Yes they can pick I believe it’s pheromones

 

[rolande]

I suppose next time I find a colony with high levels of varroa it would be interesting to remove the queen and add a frame of grafts when all other brood is sealed. Then open the q-cells once capped. Takes a bit of effort to destroy a batch of grafts on purpose though.

The following quote excerpted from a longer article has been pulled from Kirk Webster's website.

Now, here’s the step I added when I started raising cells in untreated colonies: Two days after grafting, I go back to those boxes of brood and honey frames, set on top of strong colonies on the grafting day. By now lots of young bees have run up through the excluders to feed and continue capping the brood. On the second day after grafting, I lift those boxes off, and return one frame of sealing brood, with adhering bees, to each cell-builder. I also shake in the bees from the frames of honey. This way the cells are started in the optimum situation where all the royal jelly must go into the queen cells during the critical early hours. Then, some additional bees are added for finishing, and the worker brood attracts varroa mites away from the queen cells as they are being sealed. I’ve read that varroa mites don’t infest queen cells, but apparently my specially selected strain of mites never learned to read, and I can find them in the queen cells if I don’t include this extra step.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Not being funny but how do you know that! I picked a hive once to break down to a single box cell starter/raiser it was on a dbl brood but only filling half the top box. Others on site had a super or 2 hence the reason for picking that one. I inserted grafts, now due to bad weather or time when I opened up to transfer cells I was treated with a couple of emerged virgins and several popping out in front of me. I found 2 with deformed wings and another in the Nucs after I checked Nucs a little later. Of that whole batch many did not mate or if they did most failed shortly after. I think all but 2 of about 18 had gone by autumn. Obviously after seeing the deformed wings I treated a couple of the Nucs I’d made up from the cell raiser and found lots of varroa. As a matter of course I treat anything I’m putting grafts into. I think we’re all aware varroa prefer drone/worker cells but wonder what the situation is if there options are limited.

Like a lot of things it’s something I picked up from a lecture somewhere, meaning to file it somewhere more secure than my aging brain. I guess if I saw lots of worker bees with deformed wings AND the queen then I might surmise the cause was the same but if nothing in the rest of the colony?

 

[Ian123]

Hi just to clarify I didn’t mean add a frame of grafts as a form of varroa controljust wanted to see if varroa would enter the cells in numbers. I’ll stick with treating my cell raisers as the control it’s easier. Ian

 

[Ian123]

Like a lot of things it’s something I picked up from a lecture somewhere, meaning to file it somewhere more secure than my aging brain. I guess if I saw lots of worker bees with deformed wings AND the queen then I might surmise the cause was the same but if nothing in the rest of the colony?

Part the problem is in a large colony even with a high varroa count you tend not to see bees with deformed wings I tend to find there chucked out rather quick.

 

[rolande]

Hi just to clarify I didn’t mean add a frame of grafts as a form of varroa controljust wanted to see if varroa would enter the cells in numbers. I’ll stick with treating my cell raisers as the control it’s easier. Ian

Apologies if this post wasn't a response to the Webster quote. However, if it was, then I think there may be a misunderstanding, he's referring to adding a frame of worker brood (in a treatment free system) ready for sealing to draw mites away from the graft frame.

 

[elainemary]

Not being funny but how do you know that! I picked a hive once to break down to a single box cell starter/raiser it was on a dbl brood but only filling half the top box. Others on site had a super or 2 hence the reason for picking that one. I inserted grafts, now due to bad weather or time when I opened up to transfer cells I was treated with a couple of emerged virgins and several popping out in front of me. I found 2 with deformed wings and another in the Nucs after I checked Nucs a little later. Of that whole batch many did not mate or if they did most failed shortly after. I think all but 2 of about 18 had gone by autumn. Obviously after seeing the deformed wings I treated a couple of the Nucs I’d made up from the cell raiser and found lots of varroa. As a matter of course I treat anything I’m putting grafts into. I think we’re all aware varroa prefer drone/worker cells but wonder what the situation is if there options are limited.

Reason is all down to timings:
1st varroa egg laid 70 hours after capping =c3 days post capping
But this first egg is unfertilised and so is male
-next egg is laid 30 hours later & female, Then mated by her brother = c4 days total after capping
-it takes 6 more days to mature, mite will die through dehydration if unsclerotised i.e. needs min. 10 days after original cell capping
-queen cells are capped for only 8 days so female varroa cannot develop and mate in time; she dies from dehydration (these are the pale coloured mites you sometimes see on varroa boards)
-worker brood is capped for 11-12 days so varroa can mate, mature and emerge on bee fully sclerotised and not vulnerable to dehydration
-N.B. drone brood capped for further 2-3 days so on average at least 2 more mature mites can emerge from the cell

That’s why queens are not infested directly by varroa whilst developing in their cells & why they don’t have DWV as a result of varroa. More likely deformed wings due to another reason - damaged whilst inside queen cells, perhaps as a result of handling or another genetic reason...,.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Reason is all down to timings:
1st varroa egg laid 70 hours after capping =c3 days post capping
But this first egg is unfertilised and so is male
-next egg is laid 30 hours later & female, Then mated by her brother = c4 days total after capping
-it takes 6 more days to mature, mite will die through dehydration if unsclerotised i.e. needs min. 10 days after original cell capping
-queen cells are capped for only 8 days so female varroa cannot develop and mate in time; she dies from dehydration (these are the pale coloured mites you sometimes see on varroa boards)
-worker brood is capped for 11-12 days so varroa can mate, mature and emerge on bee fully sclerotised and not vulnerable to dehydration
-N.B. drone brood capped for further 2-3 days so on average at least 2 more mature mites can emerge from the cell

That’s why queens are not infested directly by varroa whilst developing in their cells & why they don’t have DWV as a result of varroa. More likely deformed wings due to another reason - damaged whilst inside queen cells, perhaps as a result of handling or another genetic reason...,.

So while these immature varroa are growing towards a certain death what are they feeding on?

 

[elainemary]

So while these immature varroa are growing towards a certain death what are they feeding on?

Immature varroa are not viable, only start feeding on the bee once mature.
Also don’t jump into queen cells as
repelled by scent of royal jelly

 

[beeno]

Not being funny but how do you know that! I picked a hive once to break down to a single box cell starter/raiser it was on a dbl brood but only filling half the top box. Others on site had a super or 2 hence the reason for picking that one.

As you compared your colony's performance to others on the site you should have known that your colony was ailing. The last thing you should have done was to use it as a cell raiser! Surely, you have twigged that by now.

 

[Ian123]

Reason is all down to timings:
1st varroa egg laid 70 hours after capping =c3 days post capping
But this first egg is unfertilised and so is male
-next egg is laid 30 hours later & female, Then mated by her brother = c4 days total after capping
-it takes 6 more days to mature, mite will die through dehydration if unsclerotised i.e. needs min. 10 days after original cell capping
-queen cells are capped for only 8 days so female varroa cannot develop and mate in time; she dies from dehydration (these are the pale coloured mites you sometimes see on varroa boards)
-worker brood is capped for 11-12 days so varroa can mate, mature and emerge on bee fully sclerotised and not vulnerable to dehydration
-N.B. drone brood capped for further 2-3 days so on average at least 2 more mature mites can emerge from the cell

That’s why queens are not infested directly by varroa whilst developing in their cells & why they don’t have DWV as a result of varroa. More likely deformed wings due to another reason - damaged whilst inside queen cells, perhaps as a result of handling or another genetic reason...,.

Hi yes we all no the timings but that’s not evidence that varroa don’t go into q-cells in fact some report they do. And certainly if options are limited I suggest they may. I also suspect I’ve seen varroa in a qcell I was squishing once but by the time I did a double take and sorted through the mess all evidence was gone.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I found this which suggests that queens are infected by their workers during their lifetime Patterns of viral infection in honey bee queens

 

[Ian123]

As you compared your colony's performance to others on the site you should have known that your colony was ailing. The last thing you should have done was to use it as a cell raiser! Surely, you have twigged that by now.

Lol I compared it in terms of honey production/size and it certainly wasn’t obviously ailing, it had received the same treatments as others Autumn and winter. Let’s just say it wasn’t quite up to speed as others but certainly strong enough to make a decent cell raiser. I’ve also been raising/grafting queens before varroa arrived I think I did my first batch with lady called Dinah Sweet aged 12 I’ve seen the odd crumpled wing queen but never in the numbers from that batch.................” Also don’t jump into queen cells as
repelled by scent of royal jelly”.......Any evidence for that?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Immature varroa are not viable, only start feeding on the bee once mature.
Also don’t jump into queen cells as
repelled by scent of royal jelly

But the developing immature mites feed on the developing bee

 

[B+.]

But the developing immature mites feed on the developing bee

@elainemary Do you have evidence to support your assertion that immature mites don't feed on the developing pupa? I've posted this link before ( ) and you'll notice that Jeff Harris specifically mentions the puncture wounds caused by feeding varroa mites from 10:00 onward.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think I did my first batch with lady called Dinah Sweet

Lovely lady, I had a lot of time for Dinah - you do know she died last year? during the first lockdown, she had been ill for some time before then.

 

[Ian123]

Lovely lady, I had a lot of time for Dinah - you do know she died last year? during the first lockdown, she had been ill for some time before then.

Yes I did, I saw the post you put up at the time, I first met her and John when they lived in Bagshot in Surrey before she eventually moved back to Wales. I quite often would spend the day with them going through the hives she had a good few then and she was very patient with a young man. Back about 2006 I went up to the Welsh convention her and John put me up for the weekend they also had Clive du Bryun staying with them. Lovely couple and very kind to me. Ian

 

[Swarm]

[/QUOTE]

I may have been around the block a few times but I resent being refered to as elderly. Did I say anywhere that I had been advised to lift heavy boxes?

What makes you think I was referring to you? I wouldn't consider myself as elderly and you are a few years younger than I am.

 

[elainemary]

Immature varroa are not viable, only start feeding on the bee once mature

@elainemary Do you have evidence to support your assertion that immature mites don't feed on the developing pupa? I've posted this link before ( ) and you'll notice that Jeff Harris specifically mentions the puncture wounds caused by feeding varroa mites from 10:00 onward.

Yes you’re right, thanks for sharing this. I wrongly assumed they didn’t start feeding until mature as the explanation why they don’t seem to infect queens. I think the reason they don’t enter queen cells is varroa ecological adaptation not to, as they don’t mature in time so desiccate. Along with the royal jelly repulsion.

 

[Murox]

@elainemary So what is it about the queens royal jelly that repels the mites ??