What is happening to our queens

[Curly green finger's]

If it ever happened again I would get to know my local dealer for the real stuff.

I wouldnt? Unless you knew how it had been grown.
Smoking weed unless it's very high in cbds and low in thc is only really going to turn you in to a vegetable.

Plus all the other chemicals and carsonagens you would be putting into your lungs.
You didn't really say you were going to smoke it but I thought I would highlight it anyway

 

[Erichalfbee]

So? I'm a physically fit 50 year old who's kept bees all his life. But, if I was starting at 70 I'd be looking for the appropriate technology that would allow me to have a go at the hobby not some bloke telling me to take up knitting. Likewise, if I reach a point where I can't use the kit I've got now, I'll be sure to get some long hives before I get a set of knitting needles.

If it was a choice between knitting and keeping bees with Roger’s prescription I know what I would do

 

[victor meldrew]

I thought the content he adds is in blue (or different colour), so you know what’s original Dave Cushman’s.

I saw that it was archived?Rp has certainly messed about with it.

 

[rolande]

I saw that it was archived?Rp has certainly messed about with it.

Although I've never been much of a fan of RP I tend to think that it's right for him to add his thoughts to the page, presumably that's what Cushman expected and as he's the chosen successor then it's up to him. At least he had permission rather than appointing himself as custodian....

 

[user 20297]

Way off topic now; but whatever our opinions may be, about RP's views on any particular matter or regarding his style of delivering that message, the introduction he gives on the DC site is very balanced; it is an approach that we would all do well to adopt,

"Dave Cushman before me and myself taking over this website from him have tried to give sound information. We may promote certain aspects of beekeeping, but please do not accept them as 'the definitive standard' - there isn't one. As experienced beekeepers we have formed our opinions and modified our ideas constantly in the light of experience and new thinking. This is through observation and logic, not simply by recycling what is in books, as many do. We freely pass on our knowledge in the hope it will prevent other beekeepers making mistakes.
Please study the material that is here and accept or reject it according to the way it aligns with your own ideas. This is what progress is all about. The more that established thinking is challenged and discussed, the more we will all ultimately know.
Roger Patterson."

 

[Into the lions den]

What is wrong with our queens?

Nothing. Its drivel. Its very simple...bad weather and substandard matings lead to poorer outcomes. Very early queens..a source of high peeing competitions among some...have a far higher failure rate..however it is environmentally caused and if there is no genetic problem using these queens, and their progeny is fine...the next generation, if properly nourished and mated will be really good.

but

The harder you work them the shorter their useful lives. The idea of a 5yo queen heading a satisfactory production colony is very dubious...if we get a really old queen they have rarely been in top units all their lives. We have had a queen as old as 7...but we can only keep queens going for a long time (in the breeding unit) by keeping them in nucs and drawing off brood to keep them small so the egg laying demand on the queen is low. Makes her burn out less quickly and we get longer use of the progenitor of a special line.

Jolanta'[s old J7 line had become so low vigour in her last years than even then she had to be saved in winter and added to a queenless but strong nuc just to get her through and supercedure had to be regularly headed off over her last couple of seasons. Then one day in summer she was just gone. There was a very upset Jolanta in her shed..the l;ast old lady that had been with her from the start.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Really?
Got any data to back up any of this? or just plain facts?

Just plain old education I'm afraid.

 

[mbc]

I've heard Wally Shaw lecture on drones passing on std's to queens and this theory has some substance, though a drone laden with virus is unlikely to outcompete healthy fellows to mate a queen. It could explain queens mated later in the season turning dlq unexpectedly.
But largely this queen problems thing has been someone else's problem, I remember Roger asking me about my experience of it and myself being at a bit of a loss because I had no tales to tell.
I did have an interesting chat with a breeder just south of me who's convinced bees have got meaner, not in defensiveness towards the beekeeper, but in aggression towards virgins, to the extent that many are a bit tired and mangled (nipped off feet when looked at closely and lost much of their body hair) by the time they go for a mating flight and so fail to mate effectively or never make it back. It fitted with what I'd seen that year of many swarmed hives failing to get their virgins mated whereas the mini nucs performed as normal, possibly due to the large numbers of mean old bees in the full hives harassing the virgin and nipping at her heals.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Just plain old education I'm afraid.

so no evidence to support your 'theory' then?

 

[Murox]

I've heard Wally Shaw lecture on drones passing on std's to queens and this theory has some substance, though a drone laden with virus is unlikely to outcompete healthy fellows to mate a queen. It could explain queens mated later in the season turning dlq unexpectedly.
But largely this queen problems thing has been someone else's problem, I remember Roger asking me about my experience of it and myself being at a bit of a loss because I had no tales to tell.
I did have an interesting chat with a breeder just south of me who's convinced bees have got meaner, not in defensiveness towards the beekeeper, but in aggression towards virgins, to the extent that many are a bit tired and mangled (nipped off feet when looked at closely and lost much of their body hair) by the time they go for a mating flight and so fail to mate effectively or never make it back. It fitted with what I'd seen that year of many swarmed hives failing to get their virgins mated whereas the mini nucs performed as normal, possibly due to the large numbers of mean old bees in the full hives harassing the virgin and nipping at her heals.

Thats an interesting observation.

 

[rolande]

@mbc that's an interesting observation from your breeder friend. I remember Bernhard Heuval writing on beesource about old bees roughing up even mated queens but that was as a supporting reason for his strange approach to using the Buckfast hive without a full compliment of brood frames.

Other than that memory, I totally agree that this issue of prematurely failing queen's has, so far, always been someone else's problem.

 

[Frizzaldo]

is there much evidence of queen's emerging with dwv?

I see a picture here but wonder how common it is

https://www.honeybeesuite.com/queen-deformed-wings/

 

[madasafish]

is there much evidence of queen's emerging with dwv?

I see a picture here but wonder how common it is

https://www.honeybeesuite.com/queen-deformed-wings/

I has one queen emerge like that.

I recall a lecturer and pamphlet writer - mentioned above - who said it never happened to Qs..

After that, I tend to treat anything anyone says of QR as utter sperical objects if not proven.

 

[elainemary]

is there much evidence of queen's emerging with dwv?

I see a picture here but wonder how common it is

https://www.honeybeesuite.com/queen-deformed-wings/

Queens tend not to have deformed wings as Varroa mites do not reproduce within queen cells because of the repellency of royal jelly and the short post capping period of queens. Vast majority of mites are attracted to worker and drone brood due to longer capping stages, which allows varroa to produce more offspring per cycle
Queens with deformed wings can emerge from roughly handled queen cells at the pupal stage. Eg dropping them or roughly laying on their side.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

is there much evidence of queen's emerging with dwv?

I see a picture here but wonder how common it is

https://www.honeybeesuite.com/queen-deformed-wings/

I suppose a lot depends on how seriously the beekeeper takes varroa control

 

[Erichalfbee]

Varroa mites do not reproduce within queen cells because of the repellency of royal jelly and the short post capping period of queens. Vast majority of mites are attracted to worker and drone brood due to longer capping stages, which allows varroa to produce more offspring per cycle
Queens with deformed wings can emerge from roughly handled queen cells at the pupal stage. Eg dropping them or roughly laying on their side.

You beat me to it. Queens can and do get deformed wings but not due to DWV

 

[beeno]

I've heard Wally Shaw lecture on drones passing on std's to queens and this theory has some substance, though a drone laden with virus is unlikely to outcompete healthy fellows to mate a queen. It could explain queens mated later in the season turning dlq unexpectedly.
But largely this queen problems thing has been someone else's problem, I remember Roger asking me about my experience of it and myself being at a bit of a loss because I had no tales to tell.
I did have an interesting chat with a breeder just south of me who's convinced bees have got meaner, not in defensiveness towards the beekeeper, but in aggression towards virgins, to the extent that many are a bit tired and mangled (nipped off feet when looked at closely and lost much of their body hair) by the time they go for a mating flight and so fail to mate effectively or never make it back. It fitted with what I'd seen that year of many swarmed hives failing to get their virgins mated whereas the mini nucs performed as normal, possibly due to the large numbers of mean old bees in the full hives harassing the virgin and nipping at her heals.

As you know, it takes a lot of effort by the bees to get a virgin out on her maiden flight. In a mating nuc you have young bees that may be a bit gentler and fewer so she does not get so roughed up. Maybe it was a cohort of less vigorous virgins being produced that year due to environmental conditions and therefore slow in getting out on their maiden flights with dire consequences.

 

[Ian123]

You beat me to it. Queens can and do get deformed wings but not due to DWV

Not being funny but how do you know that! I picked a hive once to break down to a single box cell starter/raiser it was on a dbl brood but only filling half the top box. Others on site had a super or 2 hence the reason for picking that one. I inserted grafts, now due to bad weather or time when I opened up to transfer cells I was treated with a couple of emerged virgins and several popping out in front of me. I found 2 with deformed wings and another in the Nucs after I checked Nucs a little later. Of that whole batch many did not mate or if they did most failed shortly after. I think all but 2 of about 18 had gone by autumn. Obviously after seeing the deformed wings I treated a couple of the Nucs I’d made up from the cell raiser and found lots of varroa. As a matter of course I treat anything I’m putting grafts into. I think we’re all aware varroa prefer drone/worker cells but wonder what the situation is if there options are limited.

 

[Ian123]

I suppose next time I find a colony with high levels of varroa it would be interesting to remove the queen and add a frame of grafts when all other brood is sealed. Then open the q-cells once capped. Takes a bit of effort to destroy a batch of grafts on purpose though.

 

[Frizzaldo]

On varroa 'preferring' drone cells, are they sentient enough to choose which cells they go into or do they enter all cells (including QCs) but are more successful in drone cells due to the longer incubation period?