What is happening to our queens

[Boston Bees]

as an educated biologist surely you can see that with no data you present an opinion only, a personal theory. intellectual discussion is no substitute for a peer reviewed publication

I don't think we can ask for a peer reviewed publication (they aren't worth as much as they once were, sadly, thanks to the proliferation of pay-to-be-published journals.

But for a beekeeper with a long history of keeping bees, and very strongly expressed views on what method of beekeeping is right, we can ask for some figures on whether or not their approach has actually led to healthy bees (e.g. those which are able to survive winter).

 

[rolande]

For honeybees, winter survival is everything ...

survival at anytime of the year is critical especially in a treatment free set-up... because a lot of long-term untreated colonies are dead before winter -even if they don't realise it.

Where a man like BN is trying to make a living from his bees then everything depends on how long he keeps his boxes stocked because no university is going to pay his wages while his bees move into the woods.

 

[citrus]

What is wrong with our queens?

. Very early queens..a source of high peeing competitions among some...have a far higher failure rate..however it is environmentally caused and if there is no genetic problem using these queens, and their progeny is fine...the next generation, if properly nourished and mated will be really good.

forgive my ignorance but we saying 'early in the season' queens ? so for the humble backyard beekeeper we should not rush to start splits ?

 

[B+.]

forgive my ignorance but we saying 'early in the season' queens ? so for the humble backyard beekeeper we should not rush to start splits ?

I wouldn't even start grafting queens before the start of May (sometimes mid-May if the drones aren't mature and in large numbers) - but I am in rural Bedfordshire so you may need to adjust that for your own area.

 

[beeno]

Sorry don’t know just aware from literature that it repels. Compared to 5th instar larva in workers which give off a volatile compound that attracts varroa into cells just before capping.

That's supposed to be the compound that also tell the workers that the cell is ready for capping.

 

[Goran]

Early queens..
First queens at my place I could have hatched late April, beginning of May.. But then my attention is completely on black locust forage.. First swarms not rarely can occur at beginning of April.. But not interest in the queen rearing since lack of demand, flood of " queen growers", low queen price, questionable queen quality from queen growers, majority never buy queens ( grow themselves - some nature selection, some negative and positive in it).. I also don't buy queens, grow by myself.. less pain and more gain..

 

[B+.]

That's supposed to be the compound that also tell the workers that the cell is ready for capping.

You might suppose that this would lead varroa mites to infest all cells uniformly. Since they don't, what is different about the compounds secreted by drone/worker/queen larvae...or is it just the increased activity of workers feeding queen larvae that disturbs the varroa in queen cells more?
(Rhetorical question - I don't expect anyone to answer it - just thinking aloud)

 

[beeno]

You might suppose that this would lead varroa mites to infest all cells uniformly. Since they don't, what is different about the compounds secreted by drone/worker/queen larvae...or is it just the increased activity of workers feeding queen larvae that disturbs the varroa in queen cells more?
(Rhetorical question - I don't expect anyone to answer it - just thinking aloud)

Not all compounds are quite the same - tweaked differently for drones, workers, queens?

 

[B+.]

Not all compounds are quite the same - tweaked differently for drones, workers, queens?

Of course, that was my first thought too. However, from a behaviour standpoint, look at the attention/disturbance these cells get. Drones are on the periphery of the nest so it's logical to assume they are disturbed the least. Queen cells receive the most attention as workers feed the developing lava thousands of times a day.
Forgive me but I'm very sceptical of explanations that can't easily be measured and proven, one way or the other. In vitro tests are one thing but transferring this to the field is something else entirely.

 

[Into the lions den]

forgive my ignorance but we saying 'early in the season' queens ? so for the humble backyard beekeeper we should not rush to start splits ?

Absolutely.

Trying to force the issue by doing it too early results in a situation where there are not enough GOOD drones around. We do our first grafts here around the start of May so we have virgins ready to fly in the third and fourth weeks. You COULD go a couple of weeks earlier further south.

The key to getting GOOD queens is not just that you CAN get early queens and you CAN get them mated and raising worker brood...its more that the quality of drones and other environmental factors must be right for best results.

Very early virgins will have only the drones from early boomers and duds that have drone layers in them sexually mature enough to perform. We always wait until we see hatched new season drones in a good proportion of our colonies. They are not mature for quite some time yet so early virgins TEND (it is not a rule) to be less well mated and last a shorter time than the ones mated a bit later in the best of circumstances. As far as we can see the queens we get to lay in June and July are best.

When other around us say they get them by the end of April or early in May.....we say well done...but we know that aint great looking ahead. These may well supercede even in the same season and then you hear 'there is something wrong with the queens'. There is. We caused it by fighting the seasons.

 

[Apple]

Murray... how do you encourage drone production?
Drone comb, half brood frames, stimulative feeding with 1 to 1 syrup.... all in April
( I know you have found that pollen supplements are only fit for landfill!)
Chons da

 

[beeno]

Of course, that was my first thought too. However, from a behaviour standpoint, look at the attention/disturbance these cells get. Drones are on the periphery of the nest so it's logical to assume they are disturbed the least. Queen cells receive the most attention as workers feed the developing lava thousands of times a day.
Forgive me but I'm very sceptical of explanations that can't easily be measured and proven, one way or the other. In vitro tests are one thing but transferring this to the field is something else entirely.

If you want to measure disturbance/visitations by nurse bees then location is not so important. Visitations by nurse bees are more frequent for queens, then drones as they eat twice as much as workers and then workers. I have natural comb and there is more varroa in drone brood than worker brood.

 

[beeno]

Murray... how do you encourage drone production?
Drone comb, half brood frames, stimulative feeding with 1 to 1 syrup.... all in April
( I know you have found that pollen supplements are only fit for landfill!)
Chons da

Regular supply of pollen apparently is the salient point.

 

[B+.]

If you want to measure disturbance/visitations by nurse bees then location is not so important. Visitations by nurse bees are more frequent for queens, then drones as they eat twice as much as workers and then workers. I have natural comb and there is more varroa in drone brood than worker brood.

That's exactly what I said

 

[Into the lions den]

Murray... how do you encourage drone production?
Drone comb, half brood frames, stimulative feeding with 1 to 1 syrup.... all in April
( I know you have found that pollen supplements are only fit for landfill!)
Chons da

We dont really. We surround the two main mating apiaries with production apiaries headed by good bees to drone flood the area....but we rely on having enough colonies chucking good drones into the pool rather than actually putting certain co9lonies into heavy drone rearing. We like genetic diversity rather than tight line breeding for the main unit so just as we refuse to put too many queens of one line into our production set up, we also like a wide variety of suitable drones. We are a bit different from some in thisway of working but its important to remember our agenda is not just the same as that of a bee breeder. Its the honey that pays the bills and we want nice resilient but workable and productive bees.

 

[Antipodes]

This year here was bad for queen rearing. I didn't notice many drones as per usual ....for a start. I think other insects are also affected. For instance, I have only just started seeing wasps, which is really rare because we usually have heaps. We have hardly had any flies this summer, and haven't had a mosquito bite ...mosquitoes are almost totally absent.

 

[elainemary]

Another interesting biological reason for ‘queens failing’ includes not returning from mating flights as a result of the queens vision impaired after their first mating flight. Seminal fluid can trigger changes in the activity of vision-related genes in the brains of honeybee queens, which in turn reduce a queen’s opportunity to complete additional mating flights. So get lost. It’s the drones way of trying to make sure his genes dominate in her offspring .

This ties in with Murray’s very apt comments about timing queen rearing with plentiful drones. Too early and there is a risk queens will need to go on more than one flight as insufficient drones.Especially early spring when beekeepers are taught to remove drone brood!!

Mating flights are thought to be unaccompanied by workers vs swarms the queen has lots of bees to guide her way, hence vision after mating is less important in a dark hive.

Perhaps in our quest to make queens in a short season, we’re working against biology and should time it better, to work with rather than against the bees

https://elifesciences.org/articles/45009

 

[Erichalfbee]

“Follow up field trials revealed that queens receiving seminal fluid flew two days earlier than sister queens inseminated with saline, and failed more often to return. These findings are consistent with seminal fluid components manipulating queen eyesight to reduce queen promiscuity across mating flights.”

The swallows and swifts compromise the bees’ vision around here more than anything else.
The article also mentions queens’ decisions to undertake risky flights. Do they understand the risks? Do they weigh them up? I always understood that the workers pushed them out.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Maybe the drones just need to improve their aim

 

[Beesnaturally]

as an educated biologist surely you can see that with no data you present an opinion only, a personal theory. intellectual discussion is no substitute for a peer reviewed publication

I assume you speaking to me Mint Bee?

The principles underlying evolution and husbandry have been probably been known for tens of thousands of years, since mankind took up farming. You find need data to know they work, any more than you need to know what gravity is to know that a suspended object will fall. (As it happens we know a lot more about the machinery of population husbandry than we do of the machinery of gravity).

A couple more examples: you don't need to be a mathematical to know that the casino always wins in the end; and you don't have to be an epidemiologist to know that a new virus can create a pandemic.

You don't need data on falling object because the evidence is all around us and is a sense sufficient data. You don't need data on casino winnings because the mathematicians can tell you its inevitable. The same for new viruses.

You don't need data on bee breeding or the evolution of natural bee populations to know what effect systematic selection of the best is likely to do, what effect systematic interference in the selection process will do.

These things are very long known and now well understood aspects of biology, evolutionary biology, and animal husbandry.