What did you do in the Apiary today?

[Beefriendly]

Now now B+...Tut Tut......there is a big difference here...unless you are secretly selling your VSH queens to Guynir? Or are you promoting we all go treatment free without access to VSH stock?
What guy and other non treaters are doing is deliberately allowing a parasite to thrive on their stock.
Despite their "claims" these are sub-optimal stock expending huge amounts of energy to fight a parasite their owner is deliberately allowing.
Seems they care more for breeding varroa than keeping healthy bees.

 

[B+.]

Now now B+...Tut Tut......there is a big difference here...unless you are secretly selling your VSH queens to Guynir? Or are you promoting we all go treatment free without access to VSH stock?
What guy and other non treaters are doing is deliberately allowing a parasite to thrive on their stock.
Despite their "claims" these are sub-optimal stock expending huge amounts of energy to fight a parasite their owner is deliberately allowing.
Seems they care more for breeding varroa than keeping healthy bees.

I have no idea what GuyNir is doing. Nor has he asked for/received any of my stock. However, I am making it available to a small breeding group consisting of other like-minded people here in the UK.
My post was in response to Eyemans suggestion that failing to treat automatically led to a loss of honey. This is a false assumption. Also, Icanhopit/Cheers has suggested that all none treaters are sowing the seeds of destruction for other beekeepers. Again, this is a false assumption.
Those of us who are working on VSH do a lot of work behind the scenes that ordinary beekeepers are unaware of. It's wrong to tar us all with the same brush

 

[Beefriendly]

My post was in response to Eyemans suggestion that failing to treat automatically led to a loss of honey. This is a false assumption.

Nope it's a very true fact, not even an assumption. You are not differentiating between your highly selected VSH elite stock which need to be artificially maintained by II and those surviving by natural selection. You cannot compare the honey gathering prowess of your bees to the un-selected hives of the garden beekeeper who simply just down't treat, but their bees survive.
The fact that honey gathering in these stocks is compromised was proven very clinically with the Avignon feral colonies. These were untreated feral stocks that were taken into hives and they survived without treatment. When they treat half the group for varroa, those treated brought in nearly 3x as much honey as the untreated.

 

[B+.]

Nope it's a very true fact, not even an assumption. You are not differentiating between your highly selected VSH elite stock which need to be artificially maintained by II and those surviving by natural selection. You cannot compare the honey gathering prowess of your bees to the un-selected hives of the garden beekeeper who simply just down't treat, but their bees survive.
The fact that honey gathering in these stocks is compromised was proven very clinically with the Avignon feral colonies. These were untreated feral stocks that were taken into hives and they survived without treatment. When they treat half the group for varroa, those treated brought in nearly 3x as much honey as the untreated.

I hold my colonies up as an example of what is possible and I encourage others to do as I have done.
You send a message of desperation; that it is not possible to have varroa tolerance/high yields/docility/etc, but, I send a message of hope. It is possible and I show people how.

 

[Jimmy]

I hold my colonies up as an example of what is possible and I encourage others to do as I have done.
You send a message of desperation; that it is not possible to have varroa tolerance/high yields/docility/etc, but, I send a message of hope. It is possible and I show people how.

B+, I know your testing protocols are scientifically valid (Coloss?). How would a comparison of sister queens +/- varroa treatment fit into that? Would it be more than just an interesting observation if there was a significant honey yield difference between +/- treatment? Could such a measure provide a measure of progress in the breeding program?
Having said that, I think your yields put the vast majority of treated colonies to shame, including mine.

 

[Beefriendly]

I hold my colonies up as an example of what is possible and I encourage others to do as I have done.
You send a message of desperation; that it is not possible to have varroa tolerance/high yields/docility/etc, but, I send a message of hope. It is possible and I show people how.

The average garden beekeeper with 2 or 3 hives maintaining his/her queens with Instrumental Insemination???? yer having a laarff.
Get real for goodness sake, get down from your Ivory tower.
I paint reality and what actually is going on in the practical world of beekeeping rather than preaching about the merits of highly selected unobtainable VSH queens.
Go have a look at all the areas with feral bees surviving varroa with no treatment...frequent swarmers, 2-3 seams of bees, crap honey production. NOT the type of bee I, or any sensible keeper, would want in their apiary.

 

[nantmoel]

Just checked sugar blocks and some have totally gone, another trip to replace them.

 

[Finman]

Having said that, I think your yields put the vast majority of treated colonies to shame, including mine.

5 langstroth box hive may gather 30 kg or 150 kg honey it depends on pastures + weathers.

 

[B+.]

B+, I know your testing protocols are scientifically valid (Coloss?). How would a comparison of sister queens +/- varroa treatment fit into that? Would it be more than just an interesting observation if there was a significant honey yield difference between +/- treatment? Could such a measure provide a measure of progress in the breeding program?
Having said that, I think your yields put the vast majority of treated colonies to shame, including mine.

The tests I perform are very similar to those outlined on the Coloss website (https://coloss.org/standard-methods-for-rearing-and-selection-of-apis-mellifera-queens/) although there are a few omissions from Coloss (particularly in the area of the age of pupa tested for hygienic and varroa sensitive hygiene behaviour). They are also well described (in German) in Selektion bei der Honigbiene by Prof Bienefeld, Dr Büchler and Mr Tiesler.
There is always variation in breeding so even full siblings mated to drones from the same queen might be expected to perform differently(each haploid egg and sperm take 16 from the queens 32 chromosomes). That is why we must perform tests and select only the best for further propagation. Part of the VSH testing involves deliberately inoculating a small nucleaus (the queen being inseminated with the sperm from a single drone) with 100 varroa mites then examining the contents of the cell once the queens workers are at least 10 days old. The ratio of non-reproducing to reproducing mites is a guide on how well the colony manages its varroa population. The queens chosen will usually be full siblings mated to drones from the same queen

 

[B+.]

5 langstroth box hive may gather 30 kg or 150 kg honey it depends on pastures + weathers.

and breeding.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I send a message of hope.

Well fblow me - he now thinks he's the Messeiah

 

[B+.]

Well fblow me - he now thinks he's the Messeiah

No...I'm just a very naughty boy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plZRe1kPWZw

 

[B+.]

The average garden beekeeper with 2 or 3 hives maintaining his/her queens with Instrumental Insemination???? yer having a laarff.
Get real for goodness sake, get down from your Ivory tower.
I paint reality and what actually is going on in the practical world of beekeeping rather than preaching about the merits of highly selected unobtainable VSH queens.
Go have a look at all the areas with feral bees surviving varroa with no treatment...frequent swarmers, 2-3 seams of bees, crap honey production. NOT the type of bee I, or any sensible keeper, would want in their apiary.

Paraphrased from one of my MBA courses:
When faced with a problem; you have four choices:
1. Accept the problem (i.e. do nothing about the situation)
2. Change yourself
3. Change the situation
4. Leave
I appreciate that not everyone has the means to do as I do but some do
If you always paint a "doom and gloom" picture, nothing will ever change. Thankfully, not everyone has your view of the world.

 

[Beefriendly]

If you always paint a "doom and gloom" picture, nothing will ever change. Thankfully, not everyone has your view of the world.

Reality is not doom and gloom.
I have non VSH bees, treat regularly for varroa and get similar if not better honey yields than yourself. I also don't have access to an exclusive breeding club nor use II.
Putting out a message that non treating in the real world is the way to go and does not affect honey yields is wrong. You are being a false prophet and misleading beekepers.
How many generations will "your" bees continue their VSH and high honey yields if bred solely in the wild with local mongrel drones?...2 generation max?

 

[Finman]

Paraphrased from one of my MBA courses:
When faced with a problem; you have four choices:
1. Accept the problem (i.e. do nothing about the situation)
2. Change yourself
3. Change the situation
4. Leave
.

IT took one hour to trickle 30 hives.

0C outside. 10 cm snow. No wind...
Clusters were wide spread
Next bird mesh around the hives.
.

 

[drex]

. The queens chosen will usually be full siblings mated to drones from the same queen

As you know, B+, I respect what you are doing. Please educate me. How do you then manage to avoid in breeding?

 

[B+.]

As you know, B+, I respect what you are doing. Please educate me. How do you then manage to avoid in breeding?

Inbreeding manifests itself differently in the workers and the queen (https://www2.hu-berlin.de/bienenkun...or1993/1-Inbreeding_effects_of_queen_1989.pdf), so, BeeBreed gives the figures separately. It also has planning facilities that allow breeders to interrogate the database looking for the best possible mates. For example, I can ask it to display mates that would produce progeny with the highest breeding value irrespective of where they are located. It will also tell me inbreeding percentages so I can decide if I am prepared to accept a higher figure in the short-term in order to accentuate a particular trait. I would then look to stabilize the trait and reduce inbreeding in future generations.
You can see the inbreeding coefficient of the queen is 1.3% and the workers is 4.5% in this example (http://www.beebreed.nl/NL-6-198-35-2015.jpg). Incidentially, this is the sire of my test queens in the 2019 test group. I have high hopes for two of them in particular.

 

[Eyeman]

Would you say these colonies were thriving?
2018 https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3907 & https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3906
2017 https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3832
2016 https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3744
None were treated yet all produced sizable crops.

I typically find low mite counts (i.e. 3/30g sample taken in the first week of July). This is well below the treatment threshold and probably below that of treated colonies.

I'll continue to manage my colonies for mites when necessary. Honey yield is only one side of my setup, queen breeding and nucleus production carry equal weight. Thriving colonies not only make honey, but produce good queens which head strong colonies that are still around come spring.

 

[For want of a better word]

IT took one hour to trickle 30 hives.

0C outside. 10 cm snow. No wind...
Clusters were wide spread
Next bird mesh around the hives.
.

Guess you do not have sprouts in Finnie land?

 

[Finman]

Thriving colonies not only make honey, but produce good queens which head strong colonies that are still around come spring.

I have had many giant colonies, which brought 170kg honey in summer, and then the are dead in autumn.

Giant colony may have giant amount of mites, and then they condensed into last winter brood, which ought to do Winter cluster.

Best colonies are hybrids and you do not get from them good daughters.
.