What did you do in the Apiary today?

[B+.]

I attended an interesting presentation by Norman Carreck tonight ("What future for local bees in Britain"?).
It was nice to get a no-BS presentation even though it left lots of questions unanswered.

 

[B+.]

Just like here, some of the imported stuff is really rubbish. Some imported bees are better, but just because they're imported doesn't make them better.

I can only talk about my own experience over the last 30 years, or so. None of the local bees I have had have come even remotely near the population I work with now. I have no doubt that there are good and bad everywhere though.

 

[Brian Bush]

Sometimes B+. Just like here, some of the imported stuff is really rubbish. Some imported bees are better, but just because they're imported doesn't make them better.

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just qualifying the statement.

Hi Fatshark your comment is absolutely correct.
I feel I should point out, however, that the queens B+ works with have pedigrees going back many years. The elements of BeeBreed group originate before the second world war. The rules that B+ abides by are very stringent. As a member he has to carry out exhaustive testing on new queens. To breed from them they have to excel in all the criteria laid down by the group. He has to check the pedigree of the queen and the drones on the system and it will not allow mating with related bees. Breeding is done on mating islands in the Baltic and North Seas, or in the case of B+ by II. Even with all these controls there is still the occasional poor queen. e.g. the queen who scores high marks on all the criteria, exceeds the colony average in honey production but has some offspring that do not meet the criteria for calmness. This queen will be culled and certainly not allowed to produce drones or daughter queens.
Having read the BeeBreed literature I understand why a catch-all ban on imports would be ridiculous. I do not disagree that perhaps there should be better scrutiny of the quality of imports. I also think that the BBKA are years behind in their thinking and could have been instrumental in setting up an offshoot of BeeBreed in the UK or something similar.

 

[linoleum bonypart]

Feels like BBKA are 100 years behind the likes of BeeBreed

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Feels like BBKA are 100 years behind the likes of BeeBreed

Waste of four words in that sentence really

 

[foghornleghorn]

That is correct.
The soapy water test takes a sample of bees (at least 30g), kill them by placing in the freezer overnight then soaking in a soapy water solution before washing the phoretic mites off the bees with a forceful jet of water into a double strainer. The upper section holds back the bees and the mites are washed into the fine mesh bellow.
An alternative is the sugar roll test, but, I prefer the soapy water test
Positives:
- You can freeze the sample until it is convenient to complete the test.
- The sample is secure. Nothing can affect the sample once it is stored safely in the freezer. If you did a sugar roll test and there was even a slight breeze, some of the mites might be blown away while you did the test
Negatives:
- You kill a small number of bees at a point in the season when the population of the colony is at its highest.

The figures I quoted were the average for the whole 2017 test group. Obviously, individual colonies showed different results. For example, the colony which had the lowest natural mite drop had 0.09 mites/day (2 mites over a 21 day period) but the colony with the highest NMD had 79 (3.76 mites/day over a 21 day period). With the soapy water test, the lowest number of mites came from a colony that had 0.00 mites/g (0 mites in a 101.6g sample) while the largest number came from a colony with 2.71 mites/g (12 mites in a 44.3g sample).
The figures I quoted initially were the means for each test for the whole test group as I think that is the best indication of how the programme is going.

Is there a deadline to have all your test results entered into beebreed, so as to give the most up to date figures?

 

[B+.]

Is there a deadline to have all your test results entered into beebreed, so as to give the most up to date figures?

Yes.
Prof Brascamp asked everyone in the group to make sure their records were up to date before 1st December. This is because he wanted to check and summarise the results of the group for a meeting next Saturday.

This years records wont be published until around the 20th February though. That is when LLH Hohen Neuendorf calculate the breeding values for all queens in the programme.

 

[fatshark]

Hi Fatshark your comment is absolutely correct.
I feel I should point out, however, that the queens B+ works with have pedigrees going back many years. The elements of BeeBreed group originate before the second world war. The rules that B+ abides by are very stringent. As a member he has to carry out exhaustive testing on new queens. To breed from them they have to excel in all the criteria laid down by the group. He has to check the pedigree of the queen and the drones on the system and it will not allow mating with related bees. Breeding is done on mating islands in the Baltic and North Seas, or in the case of B+ by II. Even with all these controls there is still the occasional poor queen. e.g. the queen who scores high marks on all the criteria, exceeds the colony average in honey production but has some offspring that do not meet the criteria for calmness. This queen will be culled and certainly not allowed to produce drones or daughter queens.
Having read the BeeBreed literature I understand why a catch-all ban on imports would be ridiculous. I do not disagree that perhaps there should be better scrutiny of the quality of imports. I also think that the BBKA are years behind in their thinking and could have been instrumental in setting up an offshoot of BeeBreed in the UK or something similar.

I tried to make clear I wasn't disagreeing with B+. I'm aware of some of the excellent queen rearing on the continent and am pleased to see similar efforts here.

However, of the many, many thousands of queens imported each year, most will not have originated (or be destined for) such a well-documented, skilled or appreciative environment. Many will come from "pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap" suppliers with little or no quality control and end up being dumped into a nuc for an early season sale (even being sold as "local bees"). Others are a £15 solution for a beekeeper who - for whatever reason - will not raise their own queens.

These (often/sometimes) poor quality imports immediately do two things. They lead to the continued propagation of poor quality genetics in UK bees. They also provide a cheap excuse not to learn how to raise queens, or possibly even to take stock improvement seriously. This is a Catch22 situation ... there's no need to learn because it probably costs more to rear your own than buy them in. Until you consider the quality.

I'm not against imports that improve stock quality and/or provide material that leads to homegrown queen rearing programmes that have a larger scale, longer term benefit.

However, I do remain concerned about imports in terms of the microbiological pathogens that they bring with them. These aren't tested for and aren't visible. This is a separate topic.

 

[B+.]

I'm not against imports that improve stock quality and/or provide material that leads to homegrown queen rearing programmes that have a larger scale, longer term benefit.

However, I do remain concerned about imports in terms of the microbiological pathogens that they bring with them. These aren't tested for and aren't visible. This is a separate topic.

Quite right. However, can there ever be enough testing to remove all risks? I think not. Testing has to be proportionate to the perceived risk.

The other side of this is that additional testing, even if they could be performed without killing the queen, would increase the cost. Again, I can only speak for myself, but, I am not supported by any university or government funding. I have to pay for all the work I do out of my own pocket. Additional testing could make the whole exercise cost prohibitive. There is another point which I would like to make: none of us are getting any younger. Where are the next generation of bee breeders coming from? If the barriers to entry are so high that only established breeders can do it, new entrants may think better of it.

 

[Brian Bush]

I tried to make clear I wasn't disagreeing with B+. I'm aware of some of the excellent queen rearing on the continent and am pleased to see similar efforts here.

However, of the many, many thousands of queens imported each year, most will not have originated (or be destined for) such a well-documented, skilled or appreciative environment. Many will come from "pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap" suppliers with little or no quality control and end up being dumped into a nuc for an early season sale (even being sold as "local bees"). Others are a £15 solution for a beekeeper who - for whatever reason - will not raise their own queens.

These (often/sometimes) poor quality imports immediately do two things. They lead to the continued propagation of poor quality genetics in UK bees. They also provide a cheap excuse not to learn how to raise queens, or possibly even to take stock improvement seriously. This is a Catch22 situation ... there's no need to learn because it probably costs more to rear your own than buy them in. Until you consider the quality.

I'm not against imports that improve stock quality and/or provide material that leads to homegrown queen rearing programmes that have a larger scale, longer term benefit.

However, I do remain concerned about imports in terms of the microbiological pathogens that they bring with them. These aren't tested for and aren't visible. This is a separate topic.

Hi Fatshark you have summed up the problem succinctly. I and , I am sure, B+ are in agreement with you

 

[For want of a better word]

Feels like BBKA are 100 years behind the likes of BeeBreed

Perhaps this thread should be re titled... What i did not do in the Apiary today.. to what the man in the Pub said!!

Nadelek Lowen
Yeghes da

 

[Beefriendly]

These (often/sometimes) poor quality imports immediately do two things. They lead to the continued propagation of poor quality genetics in UK bees. They also provide a cheap excuse not to learn how to raise queens, or possibly even to take stock improvement seriously. This is a Catch22 situation ... there's no need to learn because it probably costs more to rear your own than buy them in. Until you consider the quality.

Lots of interesting points being raised here. One thing worth considering is the quality of ones current local bees that you might be trying to improve. In the area where I live they are generally poor (struggle to fill 5 frames with brood in a national hive), bad tempered, swarmy and excess honey from a colony was a rare luxury. Ruttner gave a good description of these upland strains as heather bees.
I spent over 5 years trying to breed improved queens from them, of which I managed one decent queen (luck more than good judgement). Non of her progeny retained her characteristics and just revered back to the general norm of less than adequate. With no control over the drones I just felt I was peeing up the proverbial.
Now some might be have been happy with this general norm (and many in the area still are), but importation of a few exotic queens changed my beekeeping for ever. Gentle, non swarmy and honey in spades. Same area same apiary. Comparisons (as much as one can compare artificially strengthened local mongrel hives with non strengthened imports)...I won't give the figures you won't believe them.

Since then I have imported queens from many different sources and totally agree about the bulk stack em high and sell 'em cheap. Not in the same league as some of the decent pedigree queens available....but ALL of the queens I have brought in have been better than any of the local mongrel bees (bar 1) in my area. This might not be true of other areas though.
I breed my own queens from them and lose non of the pleasure of saying this is one of mine or giving them away...it's opened a few other peoples eyes as to what "real beekeeping" might be about. A pleasure instead of a battle.

However, drive 30 minutes north of me and the local bees are a different kettle of fish, calm relatively, non swarmy but still piss poor honey gatherers, although we are really going to test this next spring by siting equivalent hives of each on the same field of rape in my area and that area.
We love the smell of cabbage baby puke in the morning!

 

[B+.]

Ruttner gave a good description of these upland strains as heather bees.
I spent over 5 years trying to breed improved queens from them, of which I managed one decent queen (luck more than good judgement). Non of her progeny retained her characteristics and just revered back to the general norm of less than adequate. With no control over the drones I just felt I was peeing up the proverbial.

He also called the occasional fluke high performer "blinden". These can even occur in mongrel bees but are difficult to reproduce.

 

[Goran]

Tomorrow.. Some fondant making.. Must pay attention not too much of cuvée.. The recipe then could go off

 

[Eyeman]

Tomorrow.. Some fondant making.. Must pay attention not too much of cuvée.. The recipe then could go off

Converted to sugar bricks.
500g granulated sugar & 30ml water in plastic bag- mix & shape to fit your eke and leave bag open overnight to dry.

 

[Goran]

Converted to sugar bricks.
500g granulated sugar & 30ml water in plastic bag- mix & shape to fit your eke and leave bag open overnight to dry.

Over here fondants or patties.. This batch..grinded sugar, invert, nozevit, some of their own food.. Mix, bag, flatten, cut stripes and slap on top bars..

 

[Newbeebeekeeper]

Yesterday I knocked a bunch of snow off my hive! I was more worried about the snow at the front door than on the rooroof but i took them both off

 

[Uncle Betty]

Yesterday I knocked a bunch of snow off my hive! I was more worried about the snow at the front door than on the rooroof but i took them both off

I have read more than once that snow at the entrance should be left there.

It's air-permeable, but at the same time discourages the bees from flying out into the brightness and getting 'caught cold'.

 

[beeno]

Hefted all hives no need to feed. However, one that I thought might need feeding is getting heavier and heavier. Signs of fighting at the entrance of another colony the other day! Robbing this time of the year not expected. Hope the cold snap will make them forget what they were up to.

 

[enrico]

Final vape of the year