Wasp traps

[beebopper]

That time of year again - wasp and Karol appears again. It like the Invert sugar vs ordinary sugar debate.

I believe the Waspbane to be a good product which is massively over priced.

I have looked into this in some depth - high efficiency wasp traps are easy to make. Even went as far as reading the patent on Waspbane. Attractant can be easily made or bought.

The data on the web site is by the maker - think about it. Would you believe such data on a new medicine if only the makers data supports it.

Scientifically proven is loosely banded about in marketing bumf but a 'fool and his/her money are easily parted'. Many Beekeepers are excellent pray for this type of product where they treat the bees like pets and are cash rich.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

African forest...around 3 tons. T'others are bigger.

Thought so - using one of the larger pachyderms as a comparison would be stretching credibility a bit.

 

[wessexmario]

If you use narrow periscope entrances, the wasps can't just fly straight in and out of the hive, they have to land and climb the length of the entrance and get past the guards. No problem then for the bees, so no need for wasp traps.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If you use narrow periscope entrances, the wasps can't just fly straight in and out of the hive, they have to land and climb the length of the entrance and get past the guards. No problem then for the bees, so no need for wasp traps.

Like this?

 

[Karol]

Is that the same as misguiding people that a colony of wasps eat a tonne of prey insects a year whilst experts internationally after researching all sources agree it is between one and seventeen Kilograms?
And by experts I mean entomologists of PHD and Professor status, internationally recognised as specialists on Vespa species.

Interesting JBM but taking R. J. Harris as one of the experts (as previously cited on the forum I believe) then in one paper he quotes a maximum of 1.8Kg per nest per season: https://newzealandecology.org/system/files/articles/NZJEcol17_1_5.pdf

In another paper R. J. Harris quotes 62.8Kg (125.6 Kg taken by two nests): https://newzealandecology.org/system/files/articles/NZJEcol17_1_5.pdf

Spradbery on the other hand records between 15g and 20g of bufferfly meat being taken by 2 germanica wasps over 3 days, i.e. 3g per day per wasp. Multiply that up by the foraging population of a nest and that's equivalent to 15Kg in one day or 1.3 tons over a whole season assuming 6 months hunting phase:
http://www.academia.edu/4129909/Spr..._natural_history_of_social_and_solitary_wasps page 137, second paragraph.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Interesting JBM but taking R. J. Harris as one of the experts (as previously cited on the forum I believe) then in one paper he quotes a maximum of 1.8Kg per nest per season: https://newzealandecology.org/system/files/articles/NZJEcol17_1_5.pdf

In another paper R. J. Harris quotes 62.8Kg (125.6 Kg taken by two nests): https://newzealandecology.org/system/files/articles/NZJEcol17_1_5.pdf

Spradbery on the other hand records between 15g and 20g of bufferfly meat being taken by 2 germanica wasps over 3 days, i.e. 3g per day per wasp. Multiply that up by the foraging population of a nest and that's equivalent to 15Kg in one day or 1.3 tons over a whole season assuming 6 months hunting phase:
http://www.academia.edu/4129909/Spr..._natural_history_of_social_and_solitary_wasps page 137, second paragraph.

So not Vespula vulgaris then, as usual, flawed 'science' by yourself
Two of the studies (albeit far far away from the UK), by your own admission are miles away from your claim of over a ton.
Cherry picking and extrapolating figures of three day's data in New Zealand and applying it to this country is not even science, just quackery.

Dr Seirian Sumner gave a much more balanced and informed estimate in the Spring convention last year - 1.7 kg maybe stretching it to (considering the dearth of data on social wasp feeding habits in the UK) twenty five Kg. The figure of over a ton was mentioned and laughed at as pure fantasy.

All I can see is just the panic mongering and sales pitch of the average facebook advertising pest control 'operative'

 

[Beefriendly]

All I can see is just the panic mongering and sales pitch of the average facebook advertising pest control 'operative'

Interesting to see that 25% of all reviews by amazon purchasers are one star with comments like these....
"According to the instructions you need to add your own bait to the base i.e. fruit, fruit juices, beer and then make up with water. I used orange, blackcurrant and raspberry juice (some concentrated). The contraption has been hanging in my garden a week now and despite there still being lots of wasps around, not a single wasp has gone in. I don't think it was my bait as the jug I used to fill was left for a short time on my outside table and instantly attracted wasps. Disappointed."

"We have got a wasps nest in our shed and there are lots of wasps coming and going. The Waspbane has been in use for a few weeks now in our garden and to date has caught 6 wasps, several flies and a couple of moths. We've tried moving the Waspbane around the garden and have used different baits - lager, cider, honey, banana but the wasps fly straight past it. I obviously didn't expect the Waspbane to deal with nest but I thought it would attract and capture more wasps. I found the Waspbane to be a waste of money and wish I had used the money instead to get the pest control people out earlier

 

[Karol]

So not Vespula vulgaris then, <snip>

No not Vespula vulgaris. Vespula germanica in each of the three quotes.

Two of the studies (albeit far far away from the UK), by your own admission are miles away from your claim of over a ton.

They are but they also highlight the disparity in 'expert' opinion even within the same 'expert' (apologies but I gave the wrong link to the second paper which should be: https://www.cabi.org/isc/abstract/19960503474)

Cherry picking and extrapolating figures of three day's data in New Zealand and applying it to this country is not even science, just quackery.

Not New Zealand but Germany and therefore much more akin to the UK. And the purpose of quoting the NZ papers vs Spradberry was precisely to emphasize the difference between behaviour in honey dew forests with a preponderance of freely available carbohydrates vs European temperate climes with comparatively scarce carbohydrate sources.

All of the published work is an extrapolation.

Dr Seirian Sumner gave a much more balanced and informed estimate in the Spring convention last year - 1.7 kg maybe stretching it to (considering the dearth of data on social wasp feeding habits in the UK) twenty five Kg.

Okay - let's take the 25Kg figure that you've quoted as the extreme. Taking a conservative foraging population of 2,500 wasps in one nest, that equates to 10g collected by each wasp in total for the entirety of the wasp season!

How does 10g per wasp for the whole of the wasp season square away with the data provided by Spradbery where 3g were taken by each wasp in one single day.

The figure of over a ton was mentioned and laughed at as pure fantasy.

https://www.omlet.co.uk/guide/bees/honey_and_wax/a_jar_of_honey/

According to this article a hive would collect 1.6 tons of nectar to produce 0.8 tons of honey consuming most of it to leave 20 Kg in the hive. Perhaps this is also pure fantasy?

All I can see is just the panic mongering and sales pitch of the average facebook advertising pest control 'operative'

Wrong narrative. The purpose of highlighting the amount of insect prey taken by wasps is precisely to encourage people NOT to kill them because they are ecologically important. The only time wasps should be eradicated is when they are a direct threat to human health, crops and hives and when necessary this should be done judiciously. As for sales pitch I've not mentioned any product on this forum. All I've ever done on here is try to help beekeepers.

 

[beebopper]

I've ever done on here is try to help beekeepers.

Not 100% accurate in spirit at least. Sorry but I feel it is fair for people to know the whole facts.

You did 'off air' threaten to sue a member of the forum who tried to show others how to make high efficiency wasp traps. This threat had no foundation but did result in the member leaving the forum so has its desired effect.

This is clearly to try to make sure people buy you expensive traps as you want them to believe they are the only option to eradicate a wasps problem.

 

[Beefriendly]

All I've ever done on here is try to help beekeepers.

All you ever do is cause trouble whenever you deign to appear and give out your erroneous "facts". Beekeepers deserve a lot better than having a sales-rep passing out snake oil.
So

to you!

 

[pargyle]

Interesting to see that 25% of all reviews by amazon purchasers are one star with comments like these....QUOTE]

That's not really fair ... 45% on one Amazon advert and 61% on the other for Waspbane gave it 5 stars and said it worked. The key to Waspbane is to use it exactly as it says .. people often mistake failure as the product rather than the person using it.

In my past experience people with negative comments are more prone to leaving reviews so the average tends to be weighted in favour of the negative opinions. Waspbane traps are effective - I used one to protect my plum and apple trees last season which were being decimated by wasps and it worked well. I have to say that I've only rarely had a problem with wasps and my bees and I'm inclined to agree that strong colonies are the best defence against wasps and an underfloor entrance if you have the sort of hive that lends itself to this type of floor.

In addition, you are being unfair to Karol .. he's only ever provided information and often very good advice on here about wasps in general.

Pop bottle traps are about the worst thing you can add to any garden - they really are indescriminate and don't just trap wasps ... please don't peddle the pop bottle as anything like a solution to wasp problems. By all measn invent your own selective wasp trap but not just a cut and shut job on a coke bottle .. PLEASE.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

No not Vespula vulgaris. Vespula germanica in each of the three quotes.



They are but they also highlight the disparity in 'expert' opinion even within the same 'expert' (apologies but I gave the wrong link to the second paper which should be: https://www.cabi.org/isc/abstract/19960503474)



Not New Zealand but Germany and therefore much more akin to the UK. And the purpose of quoting the NZ papers vs Spradberry was precisely to emphasize the difference between behaviour in honey dew forests with a preponderance of freely available carbohydrates vs European temperate climes with comparatively scarce carbohydrate sources.

All of the published work is an extrapolation.



Okay - let's take the 25Kg figure that you've quoted as the extreme. Taking a conservative foraging population of 2,500 wasps in one nest, that equates to 10g collected by each wasp in total for the entirety of the wasp season!

How does 10g per wasp for the whole of the wasp season square away with the data provided by Spradbery where 3g were taken by each wasp in one single day.



https://www.omlet.co.uk/guide/bees/honey_and_wax/a_jar_of_honey/

According to this article a hive would collect 1.6 tons of nectar to produce 0.8 tons of honey consuming most of it to leave 20 Kg in the hive. Perhaps this is also pure fantasy?



Wrong narrative. The purpose of highlighting the amount of insect prey taken by wasps is precisely to encourage people NOT to kill them because they are ecologically important. The only time wasps should be eradicated is when they are a direct threat to human health, crops and hives and when necessary this should be done judiciously. As for sales pitch I've not mentioned any product on this forum. All I've ever done on here is try to help beekeepers.

Bluster, obfuscation and bullshit.
Your data is flawed, tailored to suit your agenda, let's leave it at that.

 

[beebopper]

Bluster, obfuscation and bullshit.
Your data is flawed, tailored to suit your agenda, let's leave it at that.

Completely on the money.

 

[Beefriendly]

In addition, you are being unfair..

I don't consider pointing out a snake oil salesman to be a snake oil salesman as being unfair.

 

[Ian123]

Unless to the snake of course?

 

[Karol]

Bluster, obfuscation and bullshit.
Your data is flawed, tailored to suit your agenda, let's leave it at that.

Except it's not my data.

In truth I do regret quoting the 4 to 5 metric ton figure. My folly was losing the original reference from whence the figure came from so I find myself defending someone else's 'data' - something that I brought upon myself. That said, when I originally came across the figure I also thought it to be ridiculous believing it to be a typo and that what was intended was 4 to 5 Kg. Having reviewed multiple sources I came to the conclusion that 4 to 5 metric tons sounded incredible but is in the 'ball park' so I continue to defend the quote. At some point I hope to stumble on the reference again which I lost when my computer system crashed back in 2005 but it's not a priority at the moment.

 

[Beefriendly]

I came to the conclusion that 4 to 5 metric tons sounded incredible but is in the 'ball park' .

For a self promoted wasp expurt you do make some real howlers.
Lets put this in slightly different terms; a hive of 50,000 bees contains approx 10kg of bees. And you reckon each wasps nests munches their way through 4-5 metric tons, the insect equivalent weight of all the bees in 400-500 bee hives each season.
That is around 2 beehives worth of insect biomass each day in daylight hours being fed and fitting into a wasp nest the size of a football. In fact it must be more in high season as the nest starts out as egg sized and slowly expands over the coming months....so in high season possibly equivalent weight of 200,000 (4 beehives worth) bees per day is taken into a nest the size of a football (which is already full of wasps and their larvae) each and every day. Biochemical reactions used in digesting insects don't suddenly go to light speed, they just plod along as per normal. Wasps nests do not possess Tardis like properties extending into other dimensions.
And you think 4-5 Metric tons per season per nest is in the "ball park".

And you still wish to defend that each nest eats its way through 4-5 metric tons of insect biomass each year even though it is easily demonstrable that it is a physically impossible feat..........words fail me.

 

[Hivemaker.]

200,000 bees per day is taken into a nest the size football already full of wasps

Tardis the size of a football.

....anyone notice an increase in the number of con trails around since it started raining?

 

[Karol]

For a self promoted wasp expurt you do make some real howlers.
Lets put this in slightly different terms; a hive of 200,000 bees contains approx 10kg of bees. And you reckon each wasps nests munches their way through 4-5 metric tons, the insect equivalent weight of all the bees in 400-500 bee hives each season.
That is around 2 beehives worth of insect biomass each day in daylight hours being fed and fitting into a wasp nest the size of a football. In fact it must be more in high season as the nest starts out as egg sized and slowly expands over the coming months....so possibly equivalent weight of 200,000 (4 beehives worth) bees per day is taken into a nest the size of a football (which is already full of wasps and their larvae) each and every day for a full 6 months. Biochemical reactions used in digesting insects don't suddenly go to light speed, they just plod along as per normal. Wasps nests do not possess Tardis like properties extending into other dimensions.
And you think 4-5 Metric tons per season per nest is in the "ball park".

And you still wish to defend that each nest eats its way through 4-5 metric tons of insect biomass each year even though it is easily demonstrable that it is a physically impossible feat..........words fail me.

My understanding is that a hive produces circa 200,000 bees per annum. So where have the missing 30Kg of honey bees gone?

And the majority of the 'biomass' that you alude to is lost as water and carbon dioxide. So 50,000 bees can burn off 1.2 tons of nectar per annum leaving only 20Kg. A wasp nest the size of a football produces 25000 wasps conservatively per annum. It's not the residual biomass that matters. It's the losses and gains over the complete cycle that account for the vast quantities involved.

Bear in mind also that the eradicated weight is not the same as the consumed weight so the 4 to 5 metric tons includes losses of pared off prey discarded by wasps that would otherwise impede flight.

 

[Beefriendly]

Bear in mind also that the eradicated weight is not the same as the consumed weight so the 4 to 5 metric tons includes losses of pared off prey discarded by wasps that would otherwise impede flight.

More nonsensical sentences that are meaningless, more obfuscation and more bullshit.
I think most of us on this forum have you sussed out now.