Warre - feeding dilemma

[user 20297]

I never suggested just removing the bottom box alone although that’s likely to be the easy bit. If the bees are out the bottom but not up to the feed hole then you can stick as much food on as you like and they won’t reach it. It will need to literally be in contact with them…… so yes it’s a reasonable idea/procedure.

Looking optimistically at this situation, the bees will be expanding downwards relatively soon. At that point, by the Warre method, as I'm sure you know, the two upper boxes will then need to be lifted in order to shove an empty beneath it. Removing it just now would be disruptive and place the bees no closer to any feed source. Currently, isn't it giving them some distance above cold draughts?

 

[Ian123]

From my quick read of that quasi-scientific study I learned nothing to indicate that pulling out an empty box from below two in a stack makes any difference to survival.
But the study actually supports the claim that wild bees survive independently os feral escapees. The wild bees found inside those poles were identified as Apis mellifera iberiensis, which it says is the native sub-species of that part of Spain. This is despite the fact that Carnica bees are overwhelmingly the beekeepers' choice over there. The study postulates that there may have been a continuous native population of bees from antiquity and throughout the era of modern beekeeping.

This supports the suggestion made by @boywonder at least as much as it backs up the claim that wild bees are not very successful at overwintering.

Jesus…………. I quoted that study to boy wonder because it gives a survival rate of wild colonies at 40% as I said.
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH REMOVING EMPTY BOXES

 

[boywonder]

'Nice bloke - knows bugger all about bees though'

I think that's what they say about me

Anyhow, whilst I do read up (Seeley et al), I am persuaded that Warre beekeeping has some interesting bee-friendly aspects.

To be honest, it's just a bit of a fun adventure. I got bored in lockdown v1.0 and worked a bit of rough-sawn local cedar into the Warre hive. It's been great fun thus far, and is teaching me a lot about bee behaviours. I even had the joy of capturing the prime swarm it issued last year in one of my bait boxes.

Every day a school day

 

[Ian123]

[QUOTE="jenkinsbrynmair, post:
'Nice bloke - knows bugger all about bees though' (that may even not be a paraphrase!!)
[/QUOTE]
Could we start a list!

 

[Erichalfbee]

So what are you going to do?

 

[user 20297]

Jesus…………. I quoted that study to boy wonder because it gives a survival rate of wild colonies at 40% as I said.
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH REMOVING EMPTY BOXES

No need to shout....OBVIOUSLY the report has nothing to do with that.....but you quoted me regarding the removal of the box and followed with the link to that study. .....I assumed it contained an explanation.

Putting that behind us, the study says bees have probably survived continuously since before the take-up of mass beekeeping of A.m.carnica in that part of Spain . Don't you see that if we use this as valid evidence that bees don't survive very well in the wild, it also gives valid evidence that they survive separately from feral escapees? That is something that most people here, citing at best, anecdotal evidence, regularly claim doesn't happen.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

as I'm sure you know, the two upper boxes will then need to be lifted in order to shove an empty beneath it

no - the colony will be moving downwards as they will be storing honey over their heads the top boxes only need lifting if you are going to harvest the honey - they won't just decide to go down the bottom leaving empty comb above, the whole idea is to give them more space below to encourage them to leave the stores on top

 

[user 20297]

I t

I think that's what they say about me

Anyhow, whilst I do read up (Seeley et al), I am persuaded that Warre beekeeping has some interesting bee-friendly aspects.

To be honest, it's just a bit of a fun adventure. I got bored in lockdown v1.0 and worked a bit of rough-sawn local cedar into the Warre hive. It's been great fun thus far, and is teaching me a lot about bee behaviours. I even had the joy of capturing the prime swarm it issued last year in one of my bait boxes.

Every day a school day

I've learned a lot about bee behaviour and bee-space simply by getting my head around the construction and use of a Warre hive.

 

[user 20297]

no - the colony will be moving downwards as they will be storing honey over their heads the top boxes only need lifting if you are going to harvest the honey - they won't just decide to go down the bottom leaving empty comb above, the whole idea is to give them more space below to encourage them to leave the stores on top

Exactly.....as I said: expanding downwards, with your added explanation of the mechanics of it.
It's very unlikely that the third box down won't be need at some point; is it doing harm?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It's very unlikely that the third box down won't be need at some point; is it doing harm?

personally I wouldn't bother moving it - it does nothing either one way or another. I think you need more boxes though. Wasn't the mad monk's plan to leave them pile in the stores through the whole summer, leave it on all winter and then just take the scraps they left come spring?

 

[user 20297]

personally I wouldn't bother moving it - it does nothing either one way or another. I think you need more boxes though. Wasn't the mad monk's plan to leave them pile in the stores through the whole summer, leave it on all winter and then just take the scraps they left come spring?

I think that was the idea. And that honey is inevitably going to be in brooded comb, and if the hive is authentic, that comb will be stuck to the sides of the boxes and to the tops of the bars below. Therefore, it's all going to have to be crushed for extraction with the loss of all the comb.
It's no-nonsense beekeeping at its "finest" and hard impossible to justify as an efficient, honey-production method when compared with regular beekeeping as we all know it.

But for me, one of the attractive things about keeping bees is the jeopardy involved, and you get plenty of that with Warre done properly.

 

[Ian123]

Beebe 20 minutes ago you referred to it as a quasi study
They only referred to Carnica in the example of Germany and AMM being pushed out, as far as I’m aware there was no mass introduction of Carnica to Spain! Although reading that sentence it is a little misleading.
The study shows a survival of 40% hardly thriving! For those that are surviving we can make a pretty good guess at small colonies repeatedly swarming causing brood breaks. In small wild colonies you can get repeated swarming. So not really a stunning breakthrough.

 

[user 20297]

Beebe 20 minutes ago you referred to it as a quasi study
They only referred to Carnica in the example of Germany and AMM being pushed out, as far as I’m aware there was no mass introduction of Carnica to Spain! Although reading that sentence it is a little misleading.
The study shows a survival of 40% hardly thriving! For those that are surviving we can make a pretty good guess at small colonies repeatedly swarming causing brood breaks. In small wild colonies you can get repeated swarming. So not really a stunning breakthrough.

I haven't retracted that designation; but it applies both ways, and the level of scientific rigour that may or may not have applied either underlines or undermines the points that both of us are making.
I am not in any position to deny that you are correct about the poor survival rate of wild/feral bees. I don't see any breakthrough in that study but was intrigued that from my reading of it the researchers were surprised to find that the bees were A.m. iberiensis. The implication being that they expected a different strain that reflected the kept bees in Galicia. What a shame that we have no forum member in Galicia who could say what variety of bee is commonly kept there.

 

[fian]

I haven't retracted that designation; but it applies both ways, and the level of scientific rigour that may or may not have applied either underlines or undermines the points that both of us are making.
I am not in any position to deny that you are correct about the poor survival rate of wild/feral bees. I don't see any breakthrough in that study but was intrigued that from my reading of it the researchers were surprised to find that the bees were A.m. iberiensis. The implication being that they expected a different strain that reflected the kept bees in Galicia. What a shame that we have no forum member in Galicia who could say what variety of bee is commonly kept there.

It is true that there are some beekeepers who are fond of importing other breeds, but it is much more common and likely to find a buckfast than a carnica. I know of at least 3 locations (north and south of Portugal and Zaragoza) where buckfast can be ordered because it is the breed with which they work in their apiaries.

 

[user 20297]

It is true that there are some beekeepers who are fond of importing other breeds, but it is much more common and likely to find a buckfast than a carnica. I know of at least 3 locations (north and south of Portugal and Zaragoza) where buckfast can be ordered because it is the breed with which they work in their apiaries.

Thank you @fian. That situation seems similar to the UK., which means that the results of the study become even more relevant to us.

 

[fian]

I haven't retracted that designation; but it applies both ways, and the level of scientific rigour that may or may not have applied either underlines or undermines the points that both of us are making.
I am not in any position to deny that you are correct about the poor survival rate of wild/feral bees. I don't see any breakthrough in that study but was intrigued that from my reading of it the researchers were surprised to find that the bees were A.m. iberiensis. The implication being that they expected a different strain that reflected the kept bees in Galicia. What a shame that we have no forum member in Galicia who could say what variety of bee is commonly kept there.

Regarding the mellifera iberensis bee, it is generally considered as an established hybrid, similar to the buckfast. It has more African (am saharensis) markers than Central European (amm). If you divide the peninsula with a straight line from Asturias to Murcia. He
The western side has a very marked predominance of Africanness while on the eastern side there are more Central European markers than average.
Thus, the Galician bees, except hybridizations due to importation, are a m iberensis with an almost complete black color.

 

[boywonder]

Looking optimistically at this situation, the bees will be expanding downwards relatively soon. At that point, by the Warre method, as I'm sure you know, the two upper boxes will then need to be lifted in order to shove an empty beneath it. Removing it just now would be disruptive and place the bees no closer to any feed source. Currently, isn't it giving them some distance above cold draughts?

Right you are, Sir

 

[boywonder]

So what are you going to do?

I am on balance going to leave them to it, but keep a daily watch on the traffic/ behaviour at the entrance, and the weather forecast.

If I feel I need to act urgently, then at least I am better prepared....

.... But I am currently minded to keep faith in the bees knowing best.

An interesting discussion, for sure. Thanks all.

 

[boywonder]

I think that was the idea. And that honey is inevitably going to be in brooded comb, and if the hive is authentic, that comb will be stuck to the sides of the boxes and to the tops of the bars below. Therefore, it's all going to have to be crushed for extraction with the loss of all the comb.
It's no-nonsense beekeeping at its "finest" and hard impossible to justify as an efficient, honey-production method when compared with regular beekeeping as we all know it.

But for me, one of the attractive things about keeping bees is the jeopardy involved, and you get plenty of that with Warre done properly.

That's the gist

I have a 4th box in the garage, ready to move under, as they move down and store up.

If they are sufficiently prolific, boxes will be removed from the top, the comb crushed, and the cleaned top bars put back in the box for the next 'under-supering' action... and thus the bees cycle through comb, and are never on manky old comb, harbouring pathogens... That is one the (many) attractions of Warre's system to me..

 

[user 20297]

That's the gist

I have a 4th box in the garage, ready to move under, as they move down and store up.

If they are sufficiently prolific, boxes will be removed from the top, the comb crushed, and the cleaned top bars put back in the box for the next 'under-supering' action... and thus the bees cycle through comb, and are never on manky old comb, harbouring pathogens... That is one the (many) attractions of Warre's system to me..

I'm with you all the way. I want to push it one step further and make a Japanese hive, which uses no top-bars, but two opposing wires or skewers in the lower boxes to stabilise the comb; the boxes are about the same size as Warre. The bees are A. cerana, but I assume the system will work work with our bees too.

My biggest dilemma with these systems is how the bee inspector will react when that day comes. Fair enough to destroy them outright if any of my other bees ever gets a notifiable disease, but a shame if they have to do that on a regular inspection.