Warre - feeding dilemma

[oxnatbees]

She SHOULD have pulled every bar.

I speak from bitter experience.
When my colonies had AFB in 2015 , every comb was inspected. Two colonies had only one cell of AFB affected brood. Infections start with a few cells only.

All infected colonies were of course destroyed and combs burned etc.

AN absence of disease on 99% of colonies does NOT mean the next has not been infected.

I ran 1 x warre and 5 x TBHs then plus two Langs then

These days inspectors use (highly accurate) Lateral Flow Test devices. Not sure those were available in 2015.

 

[Newbeeneil]

These days inspectors use (highly accurate) Lateral Flow Test devices. Not sure those were available in 2015.

I’m pretty sure LR tests were available in 2015 but they only test what is put into them. If the SBI finds no signs of infection on the one frame pulled how would a (highly accurate?) LRT find any infection on the other frames?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

These days inspectors use (highly accurate) Lateral Flow Test devices. Not sure those were available in 2015.

the LFT tests only work on infected brood, so you have to find that infected cell first.
And yes. they were available - way before 2015

 

[boywonder]

Not feeding.

Dear All, ... so, I'll next update when the colonly is dead, or early spring, when we're clear of winter and thriving (the latter, I believe)..... but just to update that I checked properly today, in the least invasive way I could.

I obviously described these as 'featherlight', having lifted the whole stack onto the new plinth with my son last weekend. Two strapping lads then, lifting the (safely strapped) stack with 4 hands on, from chest-height in a quick, clean and controlled way. It had occurred to me that, whilst by no means heavy, they might not be quite as "featherlight" as that lift indicated. When you're so hench (go look it up) it can be deceptive, I guess...

I also agree with the anlysis of @Nige.Coll in general - in that, fed or not (and these clearly not), there was generally (in our area) significant late income arising from predominantly from ivy, but also from other sources. Indeed, some of the 14x12s in my out-apiary location are so ridiculously heavy with stores (one I reckon easily in excess of 30kg), that the problem there is not going to be getting them through winter, but probably laying space in late March/April. Early swarming risk noted and banked. I have a mentee who had mistakenly left an on an empty super in early September (as an eke, for autumn Apiguard treatment), and the ivy flows there were so strong that the bees have completely filled the super with wild comb and related honey ... in September, folks.

At the garden apiary (where the Warre is), the ivy flows were good, but not quite as strong. Even so, I quite agree that a colony here which is light on stores might indicate 'bad bees'. It's not just because I love them , but, these are NOT bad bees (by any measure), and, in their mitigation, they were allowed to issue a large prime swarm (caught and being raised elsewhere) and presumably subsequent casts (not caught, unfortunately)... which meant they were only getting back up to something approaching full strength towards the end of the summer flows. Such is sustainable beekeeping. I am not managing this hive to maximise the honey crop.

Anyhow, to the point, I peeled back the hessian cover this morning (6 degrees ?), probably expecting to see a classic dense cluster at the top of the top box. What greeted me was as below, with some bees freely breaking-out, and no high cluster. Per the photo, it does not look like many bees, but, peering down, these were across most seams. I then removed the top box for weighing, which exposed the bulk of the cluster, which was pretty big, and between boxes 1 and 2. Unfortunately (as I have only 2 hands), I could not free myself to photograph this, but, please believe me ...

... a really good sized cluster ... but, more importantly to me, NOT at the top ... indicating that they had not yet even exhausted stores in the middle/upper-third of the stack.



So, to the weight. Well, I reckon that one of my boxes, with drawn bars, and c.a. 5,000 bees would weigh 3.5kg if otherwise empty. The top box came in at ~10kg ... meaning I have ~6.5 kg of stores in that box alone. Even if that's an overestimation, they should have ample. I think I am right in saying that bees at this time of the year will use ~1.5kg per month (per Seeley's studies on free-living bees). If it gets cold (0-5 degrees) their metabolism drops anyhow. I know the risk is more around the period where they are brooding (where both the colony's constantly expanding need for food and the bees' metabolic rate are higher). That (bees brooding) has been mentioned above, and is why March is so high risk a time. I appreciate that.

Basically, in my judgement, these girls are dark local bees, and they have more than enough.

Unlike a few preceding posters, I genuinely think this hive design has many advantages. It's walls are (relatively) thick; it more closely mimicks the 'shape'/dimensions of homes used by free-living colony in so many ways (entrance, verticality etc), and allows for drawing of, and cycling through fresh comb, drawn to the preferred cell sizes of the bees, humidity regulation via the quilt etc... etc...

Anyhow, I don't want to turn this into a debate about the merits (or otherwise) of Warre hives, but two random things which have occurred to me as part of this:

1. With the Warre (it having a solid floor), I can't assess the cappings on an inspection tray to get an indication of whether they are uncapping food or brood.
2. The hive dimensions (basically 30cm x 30cm) are such that I can not imagine isolation starvation. Unless a cluster is tiny, and the stores nigh-on nill, I cannot see that a cluster will ever really migrate out of contact with adjacent stores. Certainly the risk is lower.

Anyhow, long post to say simply that I'm not feeding.

The bees will sort themselves. Of that I am sure.

 

[Ian123]

Hi boywonder….they really don’t look anything like dark bees to me! It must be in the eye of the viewer
I wouldn’t worry about viewing capping detritus you should expect both brood and store cappings to be found at this point in the season.
As to isolation starvation I see it rarely and generally believe it’s more often a result of other issues.

 

[Erichalfbee]

they really don’t look anything like dark bees to me! It must be in the eye of the viewer

Yes. A few orange stripes there

 

[boywonder]

they really don’t look anything like dark bees to me! It must be in the eye of the viewer

Indeed it is. They're not yellow bees. I don't accept that. The queen is jet black.I am prepared to accept they are local mongrels, and some have some more yellowy striping. Sorry me less so. That's normal here, and what I see in feral colonies.

Naming no names, but there are beekeepers round here polluting the local gene pool with Italians and so-called Buckfasts, you know (that's tongue in cheek, BTW)

Let's just call them "darker" bees - or just plain "mongrels" ... I don't give a toss - I like them !!!!!

 

[Ian123]

Naming no names, but there are beekeepers round here polluting the local gene pool with Italians and so-called Buckfasts, you know (that's tongue in cheek, BTW)

I’d send them a bottle of wine and a thank you note

 

[madasafish]

Nice bees: Carniolan?

Be interested to see what happens by Spring.Please keep us informed.

 

[Ian123]

Nice bees: Carniolan?

Be interested to see what happens by Spring.Please keep us informed.

Nah……… valleys aren’t humid enough

 

[boywonder]

I’d send them a bottle of wine and a thank you note

Yes, maybe something of a quality which is reflective of my eternal gratitude, e.g:

 

[boywonder]

Nice bees: Carniolan?

Be interested to see what happens by Spring.Please keep us informed.

Probably a good smattering of Carnica in there. The black queen (progeny of the previous black queen) open mated in the local vicinity last year, and I do know somebody who previously kept some lovely (grey, gentle, prolific, but invariably swarmy) carnies around here a few years ago ...and who lost a few swarms into the locality

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes, maybe something of a quality which is reflective of my eternal gratitude, e.g:

Priceless!

 

[Ian123]

Priceless!

No……£7.99

 

[Erichalfbee]

No……£7.99

Shame. A good Buckfast is worth a bottle of Bolli …… at least

 

[Nige.Coll]

Probably a good smattering of Carnica in there. The black queen (progeny of the previous black queen) open mated in the local vicinity last year, and I do know somebody who previously kept some lovely (grey, gentle, prolific, but invariably swarmy) carnies around here a few years ago ...and who lost a few swarms into the locality

There should be, when you buy carniolan queens from Tamworth they tend to have carniolan traits. lmao

 

[boywonder]

...
Be interested to see what happens by Spring.Please keep us informed.

Just out of courtesy to those who kindly contributed to what was a great discussion, I'm happy to report that I stuck to my guns in deciding not to feed the 'light'/borderline Warre ... and ... well

... it seems to have come through OK

View attachment PXL_20230422_114200650.TS.mp4

and, even in spite of the cool and damp spell, appears to be making good use of the local forage, and is starting to put on weight at the rate of between 1-2 kg per week currently, and accelerating.



As such I feel somewhat vindicated, so my next task is to answer the naysayers who refute my assertion that these are "dark bees" - for which I am burning some cash on an M/C genetic analysis (Beebytes) - for no other reason than I can, and because I am curious as to the makeup of these - which are about as near to a full-on "local bee" as I can hope for here.

I'll post the results of that, for interest only, and then I'll b*gger off this thread. Cheers

 

[Ian123]

I think the only thing learned so far is there was probably more food in the hive than originally thought!!………….I look forward to the dna results I only hope like some others we could mention there’s no NDA in place

 

[boywonder]

I think the only thing learned so far is there was probably more food in the hive than originally thought!!………….I look forward to the dna results I only hope like some others we could mention there’s no NDA in place

Lol...

On what, if anything, I think I have learnt ... well yes, there was patently enough food - in spite of my fears to the contrary... but over and above that it's given me a strong sense of how frugal and resilient these particular bees are (I'm not saying they're exceptional in that regard, mind you) ... and moreover it has demonstrated the extent to which I have gotten into the bad and lazy habit of significantly over-feeding my other colonies more than they could plausibly need, and, for that matter, being overly rapacious in taking my summer crop. I am using the Warre, and another experimental setup (with XYZ intrances) to explore more gentle and bee-friendly approaches to the craft, and relaxing into a mode of deeper reflection on what I see. As I state, I am a hobbyist, so can indulge myself like this in a way that a commercial beekeeper, with a profit-motive understandably can't/won't.

 

[Teebeeaitch]

Coming to this post late but just thought I would chip in. I have had Warres in my back yard continuously for 12 years now. Maximum of four hives, minimum of one. Never ever fed them sugar or anything else. I only take off honey once a year in September if the hives are heavy. A complete box at a time, I don’t mess about with single bars as it’s nigh on impossible to do this without major disruption and a lot of effort. The games not worth the candle. No profit sought, honey is given away. As many would say, “I’m not a proper beekeeper then” but I don’t mind. It’s your choice what you do and I don’t give advice but I would just say that in 12 years I have NEVER lost a colony to starvation. Good luck in whatever path you choose.