Varroa Treatment - Super Dilemma

[andyww]

Hi,

I have colony that has pretty much filled a national brood chamber, and 50% of a super.

I want to start some Varroa treatment, looking at using Apiguard. My question is what do I do about the super? Do I leave it on because it’s just winter stores for the bees, or take the super off?
If I take the super off, then I’ll lose the 6 weeks (estimated treatment time) for the bees to fill the remaining 50% of the super?

Advice much appreciated.

 

[For want of a better word]

What have they filled it with?
Brood box... how many frames of store.. how many of brood??
Super box.. ditto ??

If there are any frames of capped stores in the super.. you could remove them for extraction... them put them back into the super with the uncapped / bare comb and put that box under the brood box.
Stores in the Brood box are the bees and the wrath of Tractor man will haunt you if you take it.
Once you have set up the colony with the super as a nadir... feed 4 pints of one to one as a thank you to the bees and then once taken.. a day... start your 2 fortnightly trays of Apiguard.
Good sensible question... hope I have given a satisfactory answer!
Good luck

Yeghes da

 

[masterBK]

Alternatively use MAQS which can be used with super on and all over in a week.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

wouldn't advise using MAQS at this time of year - too many people have ended up with failed late supersedures, I'd go with Icanhopit on this one. Plenty of time to top them up with syrup - don't listen to those eejits who say honey is 'better' for them or sugar is bad.

 

[mbc]

wouldn't advise using MAQS at this time of year - too many people have ended up with failed late supersedures, I'd go with Icanhopit on this one. Plenty of time to top them up with syrup - don't listen to those eejits who say honey is 'better' for them or sugar is bad.

I agree.
This is the classic conundrum for do gooder beekeepers at this time of the year, "I don't want to be greedy and take all of their honey" is an oft heard comment from well meaning beginners and it is exactly this dilemma about treating and feeding with supers on that makes it such a bad idea imho. Better to take the honey for yourself and look after the bees properly than have some misguided idea that it's kinder to leave them a super which will just cause a load of headaches without being of any real benefit to the bees.

 

[masterBK]

I would advise using MAQS at this time of year based on personal experience . So far have treated 58 colonies both in 2013 and 2014 and 30 colonies this year (going do to another 27 next week) and not a single loss of queen so far that could be attrributed to its use. Supersedure happens at this time of year anyway so who is to say MAQS is responsible for all of them? I once had a colony abscond after introduction of Apiguard plus it takes the queen out of lay for far longer than MAQS (again based on own personal experience using it for several years on 50+ colonies (mine plus those hives belonging to beekeeping friend) plus interupts giving winter feed.

 

[Finman]

Hi,

I have colony that has pretty much filled a national brood chamber, and 50% of a super.

I want to start some Varroa treatment, looking at using Apiguard. My question is what do I do about the super? .

Brood chamber filled with brood or honey? Super half full brood or honey?

Why you want to start "some" varroa treatment just now?

Apiquard is thymol and MAQS is formic acid.

Super? What is there?

.

 

[BeeJayBee]

I have colony that has pretty much filled a national brood chamber, and 50% of a super.

I want to start some Varroa treatment, looking at using Apiguard. My question is what do I do about the super? Do I leave it on because it’s just winter stores for the bees, or take the super off?
If I take the super off, then I’ll lose the 6 weeks (estimated treatment time) for the bees to fill the remaining 50% of the super?

Your bees should have enough food in a brood box for the winter, so take capped frames and extract them and, if you want, nadir the super (put beneath the brood box) and treat with whatever varroacide you choose.

It's August, there's still nectar to come from the second flowering of blackberry, from garden plants, and from ivy.

 

[sipa]

Maqs are fine at this time of year, only ever use a single strip.
No need for more.

Ensure good ventilation, entrance blocks out, varroa trays out.

 

[Finman]

Your bees should have enough food in a brood box for the winter, so take capped frames and extract them and, if you want, nadir t.

If the hive is now full of honey, there is no place where to rear winter cluster.
Hive should have now free combs in the brood box or full of brood.

 

[Summerslease]

Oh, no another MAQS expert! Follow the instructions with MAQS. Do you only take half your medicine when you're ill? We'll be getting the homeopathic dose next.

 

[psafloyd]

I agree.
This is the classic conundrum for do gooder beekeepers at this time of the year, "I don't want to be greedy and take all of their honey" is an oft heard comment from well meaning beginners and it is exactly this dilemma about treating and feeding with supers on that makes it such a bad idea imho. Better to take the honey for yourself and look after the bees properly than have some misguided idea that it's kinder to leave them a super which will just cause a load of headaches without being of any real benefit to the bees.

Not just all "do-gooder" "well meaning beginners", mbc. Mine have had a crammed full brood box for overwintering and brood and a half last year rather than sugar the last four years.

Just because there could be problems with honey stores doesn't mean that sugar syrup is necessarily better, does it?

It will of course depend upon where you are and what they are foraging on and until when.

Like all these situations, people need to know the general principles, but apply them to their own bees.

 

[itma]

Hi,

I have colony that has pretty much filled a national brood chamber, and 50% of a super.

I want to start some Varroa treatment, looking at using Apiguard. My question is what do I do about the super? Do I leave it on because it’s just winter stores for the bees, or take the super off?
If I take the super off, then I’ll lose the 6 weeks (estimated treatment time) for the bees to fill the remaining 50% of the super?

Advice much appreciated.

I'd like to know what you mean by the boxes being "pretty much filled".
Are all the combs fully drawn out with wax?
Are almost all the combs in the bigger box in use for brood and stores?
Are any of the frames in your "super" full of capped honey?

Then there's the question of how you intend/expect to keep your bees. Single brood or brood-and-a-half?

I'd suggest the following as priorities for mid-August.
- take any fully-capped shallow frames as your 'crop', and enjoy your first harvest!
- ensure that all the deep frames are fully drawn. Move one incomplete frame (at a time) in from the outside to be between brood and stores.
- 'nadir' the shallow box to encourage the bees to move the uncapped stuff up into the deep box. (Clean and store away your QX.) The deep box needs to be rammed full of stores/honey by the end of October. I'd arrange the frames towards the middle of the box (if you've taken any frames out), and collect the most-capped frames together in the very middle (but that's probably just me). If you have spare frames to fill the gaps, do so, or else just return your crop frames after extraction.
- reduce the entrance to an opening only a couple of inches across (or even less), to discourage robbing. Exposed honey (as with 'wet' extracted frames) attracts robbing wasps and bees - the reduced entrance makes defence much easier, and thus attacks less of a problem. Robbing of their winter stores is a more immediate threat than varroa!
- treat with Apiguard. My suggestion is that beginners invest the £5 per hive and treat regardless of perceived need in their first season. Finesse can come later.
- be equipped and ready to feed syrup by October (at the latest) in case they haven't managed to accumulate enough to get that deep box rammed full.
- leave the shallow box under, right through the winter, even if there is nothing stored in it. (It has a use even if only as a draught excluder ...)

 

[Finman]

.
I still ask, are boxes filled with honey. If so, the hive will have zero Winter cluster.

How much you have brood frames? Are you going to have winter bees when summer bees die?

 

[BeeJayBee]

Your bees should have enough food in a brood box for the winter, so take capped frames and extract them and, if you want, nadir t

If the hive is now full of honey, there is no place where to rear winter cluster.
Hive should have now free combs in the brood box or full of brood.

Yes.

Probably poor choice of words on my part, which skewed the meaning.

A brood box should be enough for overwintering in terms of both stores and space to lay.

 

[itma]

...
A brood box should be enough for overwintering in terms of both stores and space to lay.

But for a beginner, having extra space available beneath does provide a worthwhile margin of safety, so that things never need to be finely judged.

 

[Finman]

A brood box should be enough for overwintering in terms of both stores and space to lay.

How hive can bee full of honey and full of brood at same time?
It is 1.5 months to the end of season and hive has no brood because it is full of honey?

Colony will die before winter with this system. My hives are just laying winter bees and Britain is quite much to south, 2000 km. I am hurry go extract brood frames and I but en mpty frames to the queen. i do not try that they move honey to suoers tha nakes no sense..

And guys are planning mite killing...
.

 

[Finman]

A brood box should be enough for overwintering in terms of both stores and space to lay.

How hive can bee full of honey and full of brood at same time? And pollen stores?
It is 1.5 months to the end of season and hive has no brood because it is full of honey?

Colony will die before winter with that system. My hives are just laying winter bees and Britain is quite much to south, 2000 km. I am hurry go extract brood frames and I give empty frames to the queen. i do not try that they move honey to supers. That makes no sense..

 

[Hawklord]

Yes.

Probably poor choice of words on my part, which skewed the meaning.

A brood box should be enough for overwintering in terms of both stores and space to lay.

A single standard national brood box is not big enough to accommodate enough stores for a full colony to get through winter. I use a super under to create more space.

 

[Finman]

Extract the frames.