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[itma]

Not sure where I read it, but thought you were meant to warm the Oxalic before use.

Mine gets warmed to 38°C and then popped in flasks.

38 is a bit hot.
20ish is as hot as the warmest bees in the middle of a broodless cluster.

The stuff needs to be stored cold (heating acidic syrup makes HMF - bad for bees), but you'll get the least upset bees if you hit them with Oxalic syrup at about bee temperature. Which isn't going to approach 38 unless they are making wax...
So warm it up from its storage temperature.
But it doesn't need to be hot.
Bee-blood heat would be better than human-blood heat!

 

[Ely]

Unless we get a cold snap, I'm going to end up buying some MAQs to treat my hives after Easter...

Is cold the only factor that causes them to be broodless? Or is it any prolonged weather conditions that prevent them leaving the hive?

 

[mbc]

I think late august might sometimes be the likeliest chance of finding bees completely broodless round here.

Reading this thread makes me think a facility to post red or green rep to answers might be appropriate so that beginners would know which posters are more likely to be talking sense.

 

[peteinwilts]

Hi Pete,
...."but in the balmy UK, I am sure there is some brood in strong hives throughout at least most of the year".
No offence, but that is your assumption based on what exactly? Six months of the year most beeks on this forum don't even look in the box and if it is at an out apiary they don't spend much time looking outside it either!!!

No offence taken. My late feeding regime shows if they are still brooding, I do oxalic mine and you can often see young bees. Also in spring, you can see how old bees are by simply looking at them.
You dont have to tear a hive apart to see signs of brooding.

By looking at spring bees you can estimate when it was brood.
No science required. Just common sense and a bit of beecraft

 

[peteinwilts]

38 is a bit hot.
20ish is as hot as the warmest bees in the middle of a broodless cluster.

The stuff needs to be stored cold (heating acidic syrup makes HMF - bad for bees), but you'll get the least upset bees if you hit them with Oxalic syrup at about bee temperature. Which isn't going to approach 38 unless they are making wax...
So warm it up from its storage temperature.
But it doesn't need to be hot.
Bee-blood heat would be better than human-blood heat!

I need to allow for cooling. It is +1 hour before it gets to the hive. Also there is rapid cooling when exposed to the cold

 

[VEG]

beeno can you shed some light on what you meant

but it is winter and if you try to walk in a swarm in summer it can quite easily die.

 

[beeno]

No offence taken. My late feeding regime shows if they are still brooding, I do oxalic mine and you can often see young bees. Also in spring, you can see how old bees are by simply looking at them.
You dont have to tear a hive apart to see signs of brooding.

By looking at spring bees you can estimate when it was brood.
No science required. Just common sense and a bit of beecraft

Good. Here is another question for you then. 23/9 four+ frames of sealed brood, no pollen stores and none to speak of collected since. I think they collected a lot of Ivy nectar judging by the smell at the time. Opened up first time again on 28/12 for OA. No brood, good 'honey' stores which suggests that they have not been brooding and as they had little to no pollen. Lots of fluffy new bees. When were they born? All my hives only seem to have fluffy new bees?

 

[itma]

Is cold the only factor that causes them to be broodless? Or is it any prolonged weather conditions that prevent them leaving the hive?

It certainly is not entirely down to temperature. Day length would seem to have some influence.

But the odd thing is that the standard research reference on broodlessness timing says that the most likely time seemed (in the early 1950's near Aberdeen) to be in October! (And no, that's not specially cold or dark...)

In 367 examinations of healthy honeybee colonies during each of the months September to March inclusive, conducted over 7 years, the quantities of brood present and the quantities of pollen in the combs were determined. The brood minimum occurred in October, when brood was present in only 14% of colonies

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02225761

But we conventionally assume brood minimum is Christmas/New Year ...

 

[mbc]

Is cold the only factor that causes them to be broodless? Or is it any prolonged weather conditions that prevent them leaving the hive?

Change in daylight and pollen (and to some extent, nectar)income are the triggers for brood production.
Thanks for the link to the research ITMA, I would think the spread of Himalayan balsam may give different results today (if this plant has spread along the deen ?)

 

[dpearce4]

Oops I seem to have woken up a grumpy colony of beekeepers from their winter slumbers, with my earlier post.

Im not sure how to follow some of the posts made by some members on here about being irresponsible etc opening up my hives and looking for sealed brood before OA. All I can say is that since doing my treatments on my hives, all are doing well all had pollen going in yesterday and I feel it is a risk worth taking.

When I did it last year it was with a very experienced beekeeper that keeps 80+ hives and has been treating his hives this way since he started using OA.

The idea is that if you find any sealed brood you remove it leaving all the unsealed, last year this involved small patches of maybe 2 inches on 2 or 3 combs. The sealed brood that was removed had large quantities of varroa that would not have been killed by the OA if it had been left. Thus making it very effective.

I will also say that last winter I lost only 2 colonies and this was due to vandals nothing else and the others came through winter very strong (commented on by another very experienced beekeeper).

I don't ever say someone is foolish in their beekeeping, and hope the same respect will be given to me, as there are many ways to keep bees and for what some think is right others may not, but if new things are not tried then how do we move on.

I wont be commenting on this thread again as it was not my intension to cause the rumpus that has happened since.

 

[peteinwilts]

Good. Here is another question for you then. 23/9 four+ frames of sealed brood, no pollen stores and none to speak of collected since. I think they collected a lot of Ivy nectar judging by the smell at the time. Opened up first time again on 28/12 for OA. No brood, good 'honey' stores which suggests that they have not been brooding and as they had little to no pollen. Lots of fluffy new bees. When were they born? All my hives only seem to have fluffy new bees?

The amount of honey does not dictate the amount of brood. Lack of apparent brood may mean there are small patches of brood within the cluster. Unless you had the cluster apart, you may not know this.
Think about queen rearing in summer. The new queen may be chokablok with eggs, but will still only lay a handful depending on the number of supporting bees. In winter, the queen will only lay in winter if there is sufficiant supporting bees and the right kind of stores.. Their priority is survival.
I am sure you have seen a small number of dead bees in front of the hive after a snap frost late in the season.
Lack of pollen may withdraw brooding. This is why finny and his date recipe or pollen pattys and
kickstart early brooding while it is still cold.

If all of your bees are small and fluffy, you may just need a bit more practice. To be fair, I have a real heinz variety of bees and some are much easier to tell than others, although visitors are often impressed seeing a bee on a flower and me telling them which hive it came from!

There are a number of guys that get a bit grumpy when discussing 'radical' ideas... it is because they are passionate and do not like seeing bees suffer.

It is not only reading what these guys are saying, but reading between the lines you can learn a lot. Hm has a huge amount of hives (x number of hives times x number of years = a massive amount of hive years and therfore a huge amount of experience). I only have 91 hive years

A chap with 2 hives that he has kept for 20 years only = 40 hive years worth of experience.
Lots of hives steepens the learning curve (and could have bigger knocks back)

I am still a newbie still grasping at theory and the logic behind the beecraft, but if a successful someone with a large amount of hives, that have been beekeeping for many years says something extremely strongly (I.e dont inspect in winter!), I tend to listen and try and understand why.... this has been my mentality all along which is why I have not (so far!) taken too mamy knocks back.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Is cold the only factor that causes them to be broodless? Or is it any prolonged weather conditions that prevent them leaving the hive?

Ditto what the others have already said.

The shortest day is 21st December, it tends to get colder afterwards so temperature may be less of a factor than day length.

There's a bunch of charts on Dave Cushman's site that you might find interesting. "Population Dynamics of Honey Bee Colonies" http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/populationdynamics.html

Lots of fluffy new bees. When were they born?

Hatched from eggs or emerged from sealed cells, no bee gives birth.

 

[Ely]

Thanks for the info

 

[peteinwilts]

Good. Here is another question for you then. 23/9 four+ frames of sealed brood, no pollen stores and none to speak of collected since. I think they collected a lot of Ivy nectar judging by the smell at the time. Opened up first time again on 28/12 for OA. No brood, good 'honey' stores which suggests that they have not been brooding and as they had little to no pollen. Lots of fluffy new bees. When were they born? All my hives only seem to have fluffy new bees?

The amount of honey does not dictate the amount of brood. Lack of apparent brood may mean there are small patches of brood within the cluster. Unless you had the cluster apart, you may not know this.
Think about queen rearing in summer. The new queen may be chokablok with eggs, but will still only lay a handful depending on the number of supporting bees. In winter, the queen will only lay in winter if there is sufficiant supporting bees and the right kind of stores.. Their priority is survival.
I am sure you have seen a small number of dead bees in front of the hive after a snap frost late in the season.
Lack of pollen may withdraw brooding. This is why finny and his date recipe or pollen pattys and
kickstart early brooding while it is still cold.

If all of your bees are small and fluffy, you may just need a bit more practice. To be fair, I have a real heinz variety of bees and some are much easier to tell than others, although visitors are often impressed seeing a bee on a flower and me telling them which hive it came from!

There are a number of guys that get a bit grumpy when discussing 'radical' ideas... it is because they are passionate and do not like seeing bees suffer.

It is not only reading what these guys are saying, but reading between the lines you can learn a lot. Hm has a huge amount of hives (x number of hives times x number of years = a massive amount of hive years and therfore a huge amount of experience). I only have 91 hive years

A chap with 2 hives that he has kept for 20 years only = 40 hive years worth of experience.
Lots of hives steepens the learning curve (and could have bigger knocks back)

I am still a newbie still grasping at theory and the logic behind the beecraft, but if a successful someone with a large amount of hives, that have been beekeeping for many years says something extremely strongly (I.e dont inspect in winter!), I tend to listen and try and understand why.... this has been my mentality all along which is why I have not (so far!) taken too mamy knocks back.

 

[pargyle]

Roola - please don't stop with the weather forecasts!

Hear Hear ....

Now we are seeing inspections in mid-winter, and promoted by one\two hive owners, who are little more than beginners.

I wouldn't touch mine until spring - one hive owner or not - However a beekeeper of 30 years told me last week that he always inspects for brood (and removes it if it's there) before he does an OA trickle - mind you, he also told me he still puts matchsticks under his Crownboard as well !

I am sure Finman could reveal more about cooler weather conditions, but in the balmy UK, I am sure there is some brood in strong hives throughout at least most of the year.

Finnie has said on numerous occasions that they should be left alone over winter ... Something we completely agree on !

What I have been reading in this thread today has not been far from cruelty (and possibly crossing the line!), and makes me wonder if the same should apply to beekeeping.

Totally agree ... as I said earlier in this thread - there are woefully conflicting ideas in beekeeping books and other sources - I don't even agree with some of the things the BBKA come out with. The problem would be getting agreement as to WHAT is the correct basic knowledge !

One of the necessary skills to become a successful beekeeper is patience...

Absolutely ...

 

[BeeJayBee]

The problem would be getting agreement as to WHAT is the correct basic knowledge ![/B][/COLOR]

Because not everybody belongs to B8KA, maybe we should refer to Beebase, where it says :

Over the winter months apiary visits are made to make sure that hive roofs have not been blown off; that hives are still upright, as they can be knocked over as a result of winter storms, stray animal interference or vandalism; to monitor varroa levels and if necessary carry out treatments typically in December or January using oxalic acid. Hefting hives, a skill all beekeepers should develop, will also indicate if you need to „emergency‟ feed. Lifting the crown board also enables assessment of stores which can be done in conjunction with a winter Varroa treatment, or on a frosty day when the winter cluster will remain intact. The boxes may also need protecting from woodpecker attacks as they search out bee grubs for winter food.

and

On fine days colonies can be fully inspected. As a general rule colonies should not be examined below 10 C, quickly between 10 C and 14 C and above 14 C there will be no problem. [...snip...]

The NBU apiary team carry out a detailed inspection of all their colonies on the first warm days in late February or early March but will postpone if the weather is bad

from the Spring Checks (Best Practice guideline No 6)
https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/beebase/downloadDocument.cfm?id=512

 

[beeno]

The amount of honey does not dictate the amount of brood. Lack of apparent brood may mean there are small patches of brood within the cluster. Unless you had the cluster apart, you may not know this.
Think about queen rearing in summer. The new queen may be chokablok with eggs, but will still only lay a handful depending on the number of supporting bees. In winter, the queen will only lay in winter if there is sufficiant supporting bees and the right kind of stores.. Their priority is survival.
I am sure you have seen a small number of dead bees in front of the hive after a snap frost late in the season.
Lack of pollen may withdraw brooding. This is why finny and his date recipe or pollen pattys and
kickstart early brooding while it is still cold.

If all of your bees are small and fluffy, you may just need a bit more practice. To be fair, I have a real heinz variety of bees and some are much easier to tell than others, although visitors are often impressed seeing a bee on a flower and me telling them which hive it came from!

There are a number of guys that get a bit grumpy when discussing 'radical' ideas... it is because they are passionate and do not like seeing bees suffer.

It is not only reading what these guys are saying, but reading between the lines you can learn a lot. Hm has a huge amount of hives (x number of hives times x number of years = a massive amount of hive years and therfore a huge amount of experience). I only have 91 hive years

A chap with 2 hives that he has kept for 20 years only = 40 hive years worth of experience.
Lots of hives steepens the learning curve (and could have bigger knocks back)

I am still a newbie still grasping at theory and the logic behind the beecraft, but if a successful someone with a large amount of hives, that have been beekeeping for many years says something extremely strongly (I.e dont inspect in winter!), I tend to listen and try and understand why.... this has been my mentality all along which is why I have not (so far!) taken too mamy knocks back.

Hi Pete,
Many thanks for all that!
About the honey stores, the point I was trying to make was that they could not have done much brood rearing because the honey stores had not gone down sufficiently! Year before totally cleaned out by Christmas with more stores to start off with! Would bees emerging in October still be nice and fluffy in January?
The die back on this hive happened early which was a blessing so that I could get them back into one BB for the winter. Most die back, this year seems to have happened away from the hives - warm weather I guess.
Anyway, Grumpy Old Men are boring. I don't know his age but Hivemaker is ace.
Most of the winter losses last year was experienced by commercial beeks, I believe. That does not make them bad beeks, they just have to work under different constraints.
Thanks again.

 

[beeno]

Hi Beejoyfull,
Yes thanks, complete metamorphosis. Old habits die hard! Must really get that one right for basic assessment! Keep going!

 

[Roola]

Ha, I never expected my weather discussion to snowball into this. I'll keep an eye on the weather ahead though, thanks for your kind comments. There are still uncertainties about where weather is heading for Feb. some saying it could be unseasonably warm, others thinking temperatures could fall. There are still signs that next week is going to be colder.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

some saying it could be unseasonably warm, others thinking temperatures could fall. There are still signs that next week is going to be colder.

So they don't really know then! no change there I do like our weather - nearly every day a surprise!