Upcoming weather

[pargyle]

Or some other forum members for that matter.

You could invite Finman to lead the group….

An ideal beekeeping trainer ... as long as you agree with him !

 

[REDWOOD]

Brood rearing is not temperature dependant, studies of this has been done before and some colonies will have some brood all year and some won't, personally if there is brood in a hive this time of year there won't be much and if there is so what... do you treat/don't treat, pull the brood apart again next week and the week after

 

[Hivemaker.]

what... do you treat/don't treat, pull the brood apart again next week and the week after

If you really need to treat, and think there is brood, sublimate oxalic, three times, five to seven days apart, no need to open hive, minimum disturbance for 25 seconds.

Two treatments would actually be sufficient.

 

[Ely]

I treated my hives at the end of summer. Very little varroa drop. I treat with oxalic a couple of days ago and having a huge amount of varroa drop. problem is with an end of summer treatment the bees are still very active and can easily get reinfected. I don't agree with inspections but oxalic is far from just an 'emergency' treatment.

 

[Stiffy]

Brood rearing is not temperature dependant, studies of this has been done before and some colonies will have some brood all year and some won't, personally if there is brood in a hive this time of year there won't be much and if there is so what... do you treat/don't treat, pull the brood apart again next week and the week after

I agree, brood rearing is not temperature dependent but having looked in a nuc recently, there was close on 2 frames of BIAS. I will not be trickling acid on my bees this year. I will however be checking early spring and if necessary using a different remedial action.
S

 

[beeno]

I agree, brood rearing is not temperature dependent but having looked in a nuc recently, there was close on 2 frames of BIAS. I will not be trickling acid on my bees this year. I will however be checking early spring and if necessary using a different remedial action.
S

Hi Redwood and Stiffy,
Thanks Stiffy - you did look which is my point entirely. Saying that, my nuc is the only colony I have not treated because I consider it vulnerable due to its size. As you two and other people consider brood rearing not to be temperature dependant then it is even more reason to look IMHO? I don't like operating blindly in any area.
All my colonies were out flying yday post OA and I put some fondant on one which they happily started on straight away eventhough brood nest appeared to be full of syrup! My reasoning for putting the fondant on was that winter may be setting in soon and I want to avoid the possibility or isolation starvation. They don't always know what they are doing.

 

[Stiffy]

Hi Redwood and Stiffy,
Thanks Stiffy - you did look which is my point entirely. Saying that, my nuc is the only colony I have not treated because I consider it vulnerable due to its size. As you two and other people consider brood rearing not to be temperature dependant then it is even more reason to look IMHO? I don't like operating blindly in any area.
All my colonies were out flying yday post OA and I put some fondant on one which they happily started on straight away eventhough brood nest appeared to be full of syrup! My reasoning for putting the fondant on was that winter may be setting in soon and I want to avoid the possibility or isolation starvation. They don't always know what they are doing.

I didn't look on purpose, the Nuc was blown over in a gale and I was somewhat surprised to see how well they were doing.
I treated some of my hives last year after what I considered to be a two week period of cold weather and was astonished at how much dead brood was taken out of the hive. The hives that were treated with acid were slow to build up in the spring and took until mid summer to really get going. Apart from the enjoyment the bees give me, they have to as far as possible pay their way, I cannot afford to have hives that don't produce a good crop.
There may have been other factors going on but this has made me very wary of subjecting them to it again. I must point out that I take great care to ensure my hives go into winter treated and fed as thoroughly as possible.

If I had one hive and I was concerned that I hadn't treated properly then I might treat with OA. If I had treated properly and they appeared okay, I would leave them until the weather warms up and then if they need it treat with either thymol before the honey flow started or consider using macs. If it was seriously infected then I would look at emergency treating with Apivar.
S

 

[beeno]

I didn't look on purpose, the Nuc was blown over in a gale and I was somewhat surprised to see how well they were doing.
I treated some of my hives last year after what I considered to be a two week period of cold weather and was astonished at how much dead brood was taken out of the hive. The hives that were treated with acid were slow to build up in the spring and took until mid summer to really get going. Apart from the enjoyment the bees give me, they have to as far as possible pay their way, I cannot afford to have hives that don't produce a good crop.
There may have been other factors going on but this has made me very wary of subjecting them to it again. I must point out that I take great care to ensure my hives go into winter treated and fed as thoroughly as possible.

If I had one hive and I was concerned that I hadn't treated properly then I might treat with OA. If I had treated properly and they appeared okay, I would leave them until the weather warms up and then if they need it treat with either thymol before the honey flow started or consider using macs. If it was seriously infected then I would look at emergency treating with Apivar.
S

Hi Stiffy,
Thank you for sharing that. Another reason to establish the state of a colony through empirical evidence before treating!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hi dpearce,
it makes even more sense to check that the colony has not got any sealed brood

Poor bees

Another reason to establish the state of a colony through empirical evidence before treating!

Ditto

Learning is supposed to be an enjoyable experience!

But not for the bees obviously.
Why can't people have the patience to not fiddle around for a few months?

 

[user 6228]

Poor bees


But not for the bees obviously.
Why can't people not have the patience to not fiddle around for a few months?

if they did have the patience companies like Arnia wouldnt earn any money

 

[beeno]

Sorry guys, this is a serious discussion for people who use OA and I thought you did Jenkins unless I am mistaken. Considering Stiffy's experience and Hivemaker's and the research Hivemaker put on the forum it does not make any sense to treat with OA unless they are broodless. By not checking, in my book, you are an irresponsible beekeeper! I am learning and I am very grateful to the forum for it and I have not killed a colony by checking.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Sorry guys, this is a serious discussion for people who use OA and I thought you did Jenkins unless I am mistaken. Considering Stiffy's experience and Hivemaker's and the research Hivemaker put on the forum it does not make any sense to treat with OA unless they are broodless. By not checking, in my book, you are an irresponsible beekeeper! I am learning and I am very grateful to the forum for it and I have not killed a colony by checking.

Sorry Beeno but seriously I think you are hailing from cuckoo land on this one again -HM's predilection for sublimation over trickling is a separate matter altogether one of his reasons for prefering sublimation is minimal disturbance to the cluster. I and a lot of others believe it is both foolish and irresponsible to go fiddling around in the brood nest in the middle of the winter. putting oxalic on when there is brood in the hive will just mean that the treatment is less efficacious. ripping the brood/cluster apart is going to cause unneccesary stress on the colony at their lowesr ebb - could damage the queen when there is no hope of redressing the issue could put the colony back ages when they are putting right the dmage to their nicely brace combed and propolised nest and could kill the colony I'd rather not take the chance.
Which one of us is irresponsible?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Are there not other aspects of IPM that can be put into play at different times of the year if you don't get the majority of varroa with Oxalic?
The only reason I would open up in the middle of winter would be to move a frame of stores next to the bees if the adjacent frames were empty....and that doesn't involve disturbing the cluster.

Perhaps those of you who have disrupted the bees to look for brood at this time of year could let us know how your bees get on through the coming season. If they thrive then maybe there is no harm done but until somebody apart from a researcher convinces me then my crown boards stay fully closed.

 

[MuswellMetro]

well, i use Oxalic administered with a veterinary drencher at 5ml per seam BUT our association's old trainer used Lactic Acid in January, so this is not about me

Lactic acid requires the brood frames to be removed and frames frames of Bees sprayed both sides with lactic Acid, it is then repeated at three and six days, now his bees survived,consequently some of my members still used Lactic until Thornes stopped selling it last year , THATS breaking the cluster three times in a week and taking much longer than a quick peek

From FERA web as a recommended treatment

Lactic acid.
This acid is naturally found in honey, excess quantities tainting the flavour. An aqueous solution containing 15% lactic acid is made up. Five to six mils of the solution is sprayed on each side of a brood comb covered by bees with a hand sprayer. The bees will take on a grey appearance but will become black if too much is applied. An efficacy of 80% is claimed in a brood-less colony, which drops to 20-40% when significant brood is present. It is normally applied in winter during brood-less conditions when outside temperatures are above 3 C. Two to three applications are made at three-day intervals, so it is labour intensive.

 

[itma]

Are there not other aspects of IPM that can be put into play at different times of the year if you don't get the majority of varroa with Oxalic?

Yes.

It is for those people who think they are doing one treatment so they can forget about varroa until "Apiguard time" in the Autumn that absolute maximum efficacy is most important.

However, for those doing any sort of IPM, maximising the effectiveness of any individual treatment shouldn't be critical.

As always, the assumption that things must be OK "because I treated" is a dangerous one.



Personally, I think next year I'll be trying to do Oxalic trickling rather earlier, perhaps early December (around the shortest day). If nothing else it should increase the chance of a suitable 'weather window' before February! But that is just me ...

 

[beeno]

Sorry Beeno but seriously I think you are hailing from cuckoo land on this one again -HM's predilection for sublimation over trickling is a separate matter altogether one of his reasons for prefering sublimation is minimal disturbance to the cluster. I and a lot of others believe it is both foolish and irresponsible to go fiddling around in the brood nest in the middle of the winter. putting oxalic on when there is brood in the hive will just mean that the treatment is less efficacious. ripping the brood/cluster apart is going to cause unneccesary stress on the colony at their lowesr ebb - could damage the queen when there is no hope of redressing the issue could put the colony back ages when they are putting right the dmage to their nicely brace combed and propolised nest and could kill the colony I'd rather not take the chance.
Which one of us is irresponsible?

Hi Jenkins,
My comments are as follows:-
1. "seriously I think you are hailing from cuckoo land on this one again"
Offensive language and inaccurate. Sublimation vs trickling never been in that debate.
2. Looking in broodnest at the same time as contemplating OA is "not fiddling around" as you put it, but being a responsible beek in my opinion.
3. "putting oxalic on when there is brood in the hive will just mean that the treatment is less efficacious." If you have followed the debate it is not as simple as that - research submitted by Hivemaker and Stiffy's experience above.
3. As for ripping a cluster apart OA treatment should be done "when it is at least +3C" it says so on the bottle and our bee inspector says +5C. I prefer double figures myself. My bees are flying today +6C. I did not do a full inspection and Richard did his when it was +12C.
Give people some credit.

 

[Oscarmonster]

Sorry guys, this is a serious discussion for people who use OA

That's funny I was expecting the weather forecast.

 

[beeno]

Are there not other aspects of IPM that can be put into play at different times of the year if you don't get the majority of varroa with Oxalic?
The only reason I would open up in the middle of winter would be to move a frame of stores next to the bees if the adjacent frames were empty....and that doesn't involve disturbing the cluster.

Perhaps those of you who have disrupted the bees to look for brood at this time of year could let us know how your bees get on through the coming season. If they thrive then maybe there is no harm done but until somebody apart from a researcher convinces me then my crown boards stay fully closed.

Hi Ericha,
Last year I had a quick look through my strongest hive at +12C and found it broodless as well as OA trickled it before I closed up again. That is all I looked for, but I could not help feeling and noticing that it had no stores. So, it also had some fondant put on. Still my strongest, most productive hive.

 

[Ely]

Hi Jenkins,
My comments are as follows:-
1. "seriously I think you are hailing from cuckoo land on this one again"
Offensive language and inaccurate. Sublimation vs trickling never been in that debate.
2. Looking in broodnest at the same time as contemplating OA is "not fiddling around" as you put it, but being a responsible beek in my opinion.
3. "putting oxalic on when there is brood in the hive will just mean that the treatment is less efficacious." If you have followed the debate it is not as simple as that - research submitted by Hivemaker and Stiffy's experience above.
3. As for ripping a cluster apart OA treatment should be done "when it is at least +3C" it says so on the bottle and our bee inspector says +5C. I prefer double figures myself. My bees are flying today +6C. I did not do a full inspection and Richard did his when it was +12C.
Give people some credit.

Hi all respect but surely the important aspect is whether or not they are loaded with varroa? If they have varroa and happen to have brood, this time of year not a lot, in my opinion it is still worth treating to prevent the existing varroa contaminating the brood any further. In this case why check brood? Harmful disturbance aside it seems pointless. Would you not treat a varroa infestation if you saw a patch of brood?

Oxalic isn't temperature dependent to work

 

[beeno]

That's funny I was expecting the weather forecast.

You have missed it!