To treat or not for varroa

[Finman]

Except that has already happened in France, in fact a large number of colonies were found to be surviving without treatment right from its arrival here in 1982.

Chris

varro arrived to Finlanf about 1977. Russian officiers warned that it is coming and it is near state border. When the Finnish thinked over what to do, first hives start to die in east. Varroa spreaded about 50 km in a year.

Varroa killed all wild black bee colonies. Black bee was absolutely the most usual race here becaure it mated easily with pure Italian and Carniolan queens.

Actually nobody took care of black bee and it was whipped away in couple of years.

It took about 10 years that the whole country was contaminated with varroa.

There are on Polar Circle areas what varroa has not reaced.
Peninsula Ahvenanmaa is another place.

In Norway half of hives are not contaminated by varroa.

carniolan bee arrived at same time as black bee vanished. It was quite same looking but it was tame and pleasant to nurse. it was really welcome to Finland in those years. Italians have not good reputation in every place.

Xxxxxxxxxxx

but the real chock has been that very experienced beekeepers have met huge losses in few years. It is not rare that 100 or 200 hives have died in winter, and 20 years mite has been in good control.

 

[Brosville]

Not so long ago it was "accepted wisdom" that kids routinely had their tonsils and adenoids removed as it was "better for them" - nowadays it's pretty rare - it takes time for orthodoxy to be overturned - it tends to be the "awkward squad" who ask these questions, like "why rip out perfectly healthy tissue? - certainly my parents were viewed as (at the very least) "odd" because they insisted mine were left intact.

If the whole of conventional beekeeping is in favour of regular intrusive inspections, and "treatments", it can be hard to understand that there's this bloke in France who does neither, and lets his bees swarm freely who has no varroa problems - and an even bigger leap to try it out for yourself...

My view is that the varroa "problem" could well be made worse by allowing the natural nest heat and atmosphere to escape during regular inspections - I also view with suspicion the current attitude that drones are in some way unimportant, and should cheerfully be culled - it could also be that natural swarming behaviour helps keep the colonies healthy - certainly there are things found in common from those who report no problems - leaving the brood nest alone, and allowing natural drone and swarm behaviour particularly. There is a great deal of experimentation going on amongst the (more) natural beekeeping brigade on precisely these lines.........

 

[greengumbo]

There seems to be some confusion about the nature of evolution.

If it were true that the rate of evolution was governed by the number of breed cycles in a given time frame, then the faster breeding species would ALWAYS win and that would mean that smaller species of phylla such as insects would dominate. Or bacteria or viruses. But they dont.

The current state of evolution theory is that Darwinian evolution has been replaced by newer theories such as Punctuated Evolution. This explains how species such as Trilobites can have thousands of years with no seeming change and then come under stress and within a few years achieve huge change. This has nothing to do with the number of breed cycles but relies on the fact that a given geneome carries with it a huge amount of redundant data and when under stress it selects from this bank to solve the problem quickly, within decades. Were a species to rely on genetic mutation as a means of providing genetic variability, it would take far longer to respond since you only typically get a low rate of mutation per generation.

The amount of stress needed to trigger these changes can be quite small. So the honeybee will either respond to the change within a couple of decades or die out. The probability that genetic variability will solve the problem within the timescale is quite low.

If you like to think of Darwin's finches, they did not produce a range of beaks and feeding strategies by genetic variation. They already had a range of beaks in their genome and then add in food scarcity as stress and they solve the problem within a decade from their existing resources.

So go ahead and treat with confidence. So long as your honeybees feel a level of stress, they will respond to it.

Remember also that the varrora mite is not a parasite - it does not aim to kill its host - it is a symbiote - it aims to live with its host sustainably and it too will evolve to achieve that aim. It has no advantage in mass colony death since the young varorra of that colony cannot find another host easily. It achieved this balance with the Asian Honeybee.

So much of this is wrong but saying generation time doesn't matter in evolution and that viruses and bacteria don't dominate just is not true.

Bacteria consist of more species that anything else (other than possibly viruses and another fast reproducer - algae).
There are more individuals than anything else.
They live in more diverse environments than anything else.
They have a higher combined biomass than everything else put together !

In anyones book that's pretty much domination.

Viruses are if anything even more dominant. To quote a recent paper - viruses found in only 1 kg of nearshore marine surface sediment are more diverse than all the reptiles known on the planet.

Even insects are very high up in the diversity / biomass and sheer number scale. They make up about 80% of all known animal species !

As for genomes having junk DNA providing a mechanism for rapid evolution due to stress and this in turn explaining Goulds "punctated equilibria" - I have never heard of this. Can you provide a few papers ?

Anyway sorry to go of topic i'm going to treat mine now with apilife var and oxalic in winter.

 

[Finman]

You could but it would involve taking the frames out and breaking up the cluster - something which I wouldn't want to do.

spraying frame by frame is about 20 years old method. It was lactic acid in those good days.

Trickling was invented 1997. After that there are no new notable inventions to treat varroa.

It is 15 years when trickling was invented and it is not accepted in every place. It is like very new.
Methods has been tested carefully 8 years ago.

Reason to this must be that firms cannot get good business from this because the best method has not been accepted on official level. Method is very cheap,almost free.

But thymol guys are ready to squise in when ever. Odor is horrible and stays many months in hives.
But it is a friend. It heals everything. But actually not.

 

[Chris Luck]

I'm not sure why you quoted my post above Finman because it had nothing to do with what you wrote BUT the big difference between France and Finland is that honey bees are native in France and not in Finland. All bees in Finland have been introduced from other Countries including the native black bees from Germany.

This could be a major factor in why bees here in France live with untreated varroa but not in Finland.

Chris

 

[itma]

... Anyway, I don't actually forget where they are, I just forget about them until I remember them.

Chris

Yes, I'm getting older too.

 

[Der Alte Fritz]

So much of this is wrong but saying generation time doesn't matter in evolution and that viruses and bacteria don't dominate just is not true.

As for genomes having junk DNA providing a mechanism for rapid evolution due to stress and this in turn explaining Goulds "punctated equilibria" - I have never heard of this. Can you provide a few papers ?

Sorry I did not explain myself clearly here.

We are not talking about "junk DNA" but rather recessive genes. The title of Gould's book "Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes: Further Reflections on Natural History" says it all.

Chickens have a recessive gene for teeth which sometimes exhibits itself in individuals. Should they ever have a need for teeth they can just switch on the gene. No need for natural selection by genetic mutation.

This breaks the link between the number of generations

 

[cjhart2]

I also view with suspicion the current attitude that drones are in some way unimportant, and should cheerfully be culled - .

 

[Poly Hive]

Just read a very interesting book on migratory beekeeping in the States, and in passing it was mentioned that frequently it is mentioned that there are colonies in France with no varroa. The thinking in the book was that there are large areas of France still with out the pest. Whether true or not I would be a lot more convinced if I was told that "I had varroa, I know so as I sampled and found it and then the levels dropped over years and now cannot be found in my bees."

Sorry all be re France "I hae ma doots"

As for not treating please go on, they tried that in the states and lost tens of thousands of hives.

PH

 

[Hivemaker.]

I also view with suspicion the current attitude that drones are in some way unimportant, and should cheerfully be culled

Who has that attitude then? I put full brood size drone combs in to get as many drones produced as possible.

 

[Brosville]

I think you've got the right idea - sadly many hold the view that drones are a bit of a waste of space.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Perhaps the UK just isn't a good place for bees? Or perhaps things just aren't as bad as we are lead to believe? Here in France everything is fine as far as I'm concerned

They don't have mad cows or Foot and mouth in france either!!

 

[Finman]

Who has that attitude then? I put full brood size drone combs in to get as many drones produced as possible.

if you are queen producer, that is ok but otherwise the whole frames is nonsense.
It is 15% out of brood and it cuts badly honey yield.

20% drone brood and it is hard to get honey yield.

For mite capture brood must be open. It is effective only one week.
.

 

[Finman]

I think you've got the right idea - sadly many hold the view that drones are a bit of a waste of space.

that is not question.

Drones are big, about 70% bigger than worker brood. They need a huge amount of food when they are reared.
Compared to workers, drones do no make any productive work.

When hive suffers from 20% brood losses like by chalkbrood or dead bees by inbreeding, the hive is not able to make surpluss.

That has been researched in USA. Free drone rearing with natural combs makes a serious hole into honey yield.

.

 

[Brosville]

A very narrow view from a honey producer "drones do no make any productive work" - there's a very interesting blog post on the subject of drones here - http://beesontoast.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/the-importance-of-being-drone.html

 

[Chris Luck]

They don't have mad cows or Foot and mouth in france either!!

Oh yes we did but it was kept very quiet as I've mentioned before.

Sorry all be re France "Sorry all be re France "I hae ma doots""

Well just what doubts would they be, it isn't clear just what you are doubting.

Chris

 

[Poly Hive]

The same doubts as I have expressed clearly enough in the post.

If you dinna have it you canna say you are clear due to the bees. Finman said it precisely. Where is the rush to buy French varroa free queens? Or if it has to be spelled out in basics where is the demand for the queens to head varroa free colonies? The queue at the vendors doors would be a wonder to behold and where is it?

I have ma doots.

Good luck to the bees for being lucky enough to live in a part of the world where there appears to be a free zone. But I strongly suspect that is all it is not some magical reason.

PH

 

[cjhart2]

- http://beesontoast.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/the-importance-of-being-drone.html

Some bits i am not sure off but this bit

"So the suggestion I made to the conference was that a biologically and logically legitimate way of regarding the honeybee colony is as 'a living system for producing fertile, healthy drones for the purpose of perpetuating the species by spreading the genes of the best quality queens'.

Thinking through this model of the honeybee colony gives us an entirely different perspective, when compared with the conventional point of view. We can now see nectar, honey and pollen simply as fuels for this system and the worker bees as servicing the needs of the queen and performing all the tasks required to ensure the smooth running of the colony, for the ultimate purpose of producing high quality drones, which will carry the genes of their mother to virgin queens from other colonies far away."

makes you think !

 

[Brosville]

Certainly "not some magical reason", but entirely explainable and reasonable if people are willing to question what many seem to view as "set in stone" management techniques

 

[Poly Hive]

Rubbish.

PH