To treat or not for varroa

[Chris Luck]

So yes I would say swarms need treating as do colonies before and during winter.

But not all as we know, but I guess you can't be too careful, especially if you don't have many to play with.

Chris

 

[Finman]

But not all as we know, but I guess you can't be too careful, especially if you don't have many to play with.

Chris

what are you talking about "too carefull" and "playing"?

This discussion is not any more real.
Are we talking about varroa or Jesus Cristus second coming?


.

 

[Outlander]

Sorry I didn’t think it was about being careful, I thought it was about helping to protect the bees in some way silly me. Oh and I'm not playing. I see living in france had rubbed off on you.

 

[Chris Luck]

Very simple. In a case like yours and many others that can't afford to take chances then the cautious route is probably better for your peace of mind and quite possibly for your colonies, I certainly wouldn't recommend anything different.

I still think it would be useful if there was a proper study in the UK of feral colonies and their survival rates AND for some keepers with land to try a reasonable number of "local" bees using the INRA study method just for 'the science" of it rather than a lot of bluster with no one being sure exactly what the situation is.

Chris

 

[Finman]

.
Chrish you did not explained what did you mean by "too carefull" and "play".

"cautios route". "Peace in mind"

what is the matter with you?

...feral,local, science..... What they have to do with varroa treatment?

What mesh you are boiling?

 

[chrismcd]

I still think it would be useful if there was a proper study in the UK of feral colonies and their survival rates AND for some keepers with land to try a reasonable number of "local" bees using the INRA study method just for 'the science" of it rather than a lot of bluster with no one being sure exactly what the situation is.

Chris

Hi Chris,

Fair comment. I collected a swarm last year that came from a colony in a farm chimney that the farmer said "had been there since he moved to the farm 40 years ago". It was in flat, arable land in the Vale of York, where I suspect very few swarms survive the winter - BUT, I cannot be sure that the farmers "40 years" was unbroken continuity of a colony (nice black bees by the way!).

Quite simply, I think time will tell.

It does seem clear that varroa has not had a good summer in Yorkshire. It could be that a slightly less optimal environment for the varroa will give the bees a better chance of "becoming hygienic" or whatever.

I have a feeling that varroa tollerance was a trait that A.m.m bees may have had where their territory overlapped with A.cerana and that it should therefore be possible for it to "re-evolve" in a reasonable period of time.

So, it could be turning up all over the place - here's hoping

 

[Finman]

I have a feeling that varroa tollerance was a trait that A.m.m bees may have had where their territory overlapped with A.cerana

and that it should therefore be possible for it to "re-evolve" in a reasonable period of time.

that idea has no base.

Mellifera has developed in Africa. No one knows how and when?
Earlier it has believed that melliferas home is Europe.

However original home must bee in Asia, beause 5 other Apis members live in Asia.
Other continents did not had Apis insects.

Varroa spread just now is faster than ever. Vain hope that it stops at once.

 

[village girl]

i think the answer is YES...... veroa is hear and are bees need to be protected, veroa has spread far and wide and verry fast because beekepers just ignored the posability that there colanys could be infested, if you chose to keep bees then you are responsable for thear wellbeing and that inclueds treating for veroa

 

[chrismcd]

that idea has no base.

Mellifera has developed in Africa. No one knows how and when?
Earlier it has believed that melliferas home is Europe.

However original home must bee in Asia, beause 5 other Apis members live in Asia.
Other continents did not had Apis insects.

Varroa spread just now is faster than ever. Vain hope that it stops at once.

Really Finman,

You are thinking too recently - evolutionary speaking.

It is generally agreed that a family of species has the most number of species where they originally evolved. For Apis species that is Asia.

A. melifera is the only one in Africa and Europe because it's ancestors moved away from Asia.

However A. melifera covers a very wide geographical areahttps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Apis_distribution_map.svg with a lot of overlap with A.cerana - which is believed to be varroa's original host.

So, it is at least reasonable to assume that A.melifera has encountered varroa where it's territory overlaps with A. cerana over evolutionary periods of time.

Hence there is at least a plausible argument for looking at A. melifera strains in the region of overlap - which explains the interest in the "Russian" bees.

But please, I am simply saying it could be so - not that it is so. As I understand it the "Russian" bees have been a real disappointment.

What I was trying to say was

a) A. melifera may have had to deal with varroa before

b) A. melifera may do better evolving to cope with varroa in environments where varroa struggles.

 

[Finman]

Really Finman,

You are thinking too recently - evolutionary speaking.

It is generally agreed that a family of species has the most number of species where they originally evolved. For Apis species that is Asia.

A. melifera is the only one in Africa and Europe because it's ancestors moved away from Asia.

However A. melifera covers a very wide geographical areahttps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Apis_distribution_map.svg

with a lot of overlap with A.cerana - which is believed to be varroa's original host.

So, it is at least reasonable to assume that A.melifera has encountered varroa where it's territory overlaps with A. cerana over evolutionary periods of time.

Hence there is at least a plausible argument for looking at A. melifera strains in the region of overlap - which explains the interest in the "Russian" bees.

But please, I am simply saying it could be so - not that it is so. As I understand it the "Russian" bees have been a real disappointment.

What I was trying to say was

a) A. melifera may have had to deal with varroa before

b) A. melifera may do better evolving to cope with varroa in environments where varroa struggles.

life is not fare.
I have studied genetics and biology in Helsinki University and I have got an education of researcher in these things.

First, cerana is not believed, it is a original host of varroa.

I cannot open your links with my phone, but mellifera has lived only in Africa and in Europe and in Near East.
Englishmen have spreaded mellifera to several continents. Human has brought it to eastern Siberia to the cerana area.

You make assumptions which I have never seen

"to asssume" means nothing in these things.

5 years ago it was assumed that Europe is the home of mellifera.
Genemapping proved that mellifera home is in Africa, from where it moved in two vawes to Europe.

What ever you or me assume, the fact is, that we live among facts and not among believes.

My leading star has been in my life: " Be honest at least to your self. Try to seek facts and do not give up from this under pressure".

I have had varroa 30 years and I know something about it too.
It is getting worse. I have assumed couple of times that I know it how to control it but it has kicked me quite badly onto arse.

But varroa is my friend however. It killed feral mellifera mellifera from Finland. Varroa is easier to handle than the Black Devil as I call black bee.

.

 

[Skyhook]

Really Finman,

You are thinking too recently - evolutionary speaking.

It is generally agreed that a family of species has the most number of species where they originally evolved. For Apis species that is Asia.

A. melifera is the only one in Africa and Europe because it's ancestors moved away from Asia.

However A. melifera covers a very wide geographical areahttps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Apis_distribution_map.svg with a lot of overlap with A.cerana - which is believed to be varroa's original host.

So, it is at least reasonable to assume that A.melifera has encountered varroa where it's territory overlaps with A. cerana over evolutionary periods of time.

That map shows the CURRENT distribution- ie all the areas that man has carried a. mellifera to in the last 200 years or so, thus causing the problem with varroa when it met up with A. cerana- it tells you nothing about an evolutionary time-frame.

.

 

[chrismcd]

That map shows the CURRENT distribution- ie all the areas that man has carried a. mellifera to in the last 200 years or so, thus causing the problem with varroa when it met up with A. cerana- it tells you nothing about an evolutionary time-frame.

.

Hi Skyhook,

True enough, but all Apis bees are thought to have originated in Asia and it is at least possible that A. melifera's territory has been contiguous with a. cerana

I will admit that I am not up to speed with the history of beekeeping in the Middle East, but didn't Samson enjoy honey from a wild colony in a rather unusual hive

 

[lebouche]

Wow, what a fascinating thread.

I haven't treated my one hive which I obtained by removing a nest from my moms roof.

I was considering Oxywhadyamacallit acid.

I have treated for wax moths with bacteria.

My bees could be feral but I suspected they came from another beekeeper I have heard is nearby.

How does one recognize feral bees..surely there are not many, if any pure strains left as they must be breeding with kept bees?

Someone once told me there is now no such thing as non GM soya.

We could so easily destroy the complete balance of nature with all the tinkering we do.
My wife told me today that plants were being bred with insecticides as part of their genetic makeup. I imagine pollen from those could perhaps have a slow and bad effect on bees.

Apparently GM corn has shown to cause cancer in rats and it is in most of our foods.
I have no evidence for any of these second hand pieces of info but felt like sharing.

 

[Brosville]

Your wife is right - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odCSWY05u4Q"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odCSWY05u4Q[/ame]

 

[m100]

It does seem clear that varroa has not had a good summer in Yorkshire. It could be that a slightly less optimal environment for the varroa will give the bees a better chance of "becoming hygienic" or whatever.

Ditto, a number of brood breaks and even at the end of August a negligible mite drop looks good for overwintering. Even with a variety of Thymol based treatments in progress the mite drop is quite low.

There is often a conflict of opinion with many saying always treat in autumn regardless. Locally this year, and especially with nucs raised this season, I would suspect that a midwinter oxalic treatment would be sufficient.

But I despair when I see beeks, even those with good eyesight, that can't even recognise varroa on their OMF trays, especially when they have been shown tray debris, varroa under a microscope, been given a copy of the FERA book etc.

Similarly with recognising foul brood or other diseases.

 

[drstitson]

feral and native are NOT the same thing.

a domestic cat may become feral BUT that does not make it a wildcat.

 

[Chris Luck]

All bees are "wild".

Feral in this instance can be seen as living without any human interference what so ever.

Chris

 

[itma]

... my one hive which I obtained by removing a nest from my moms roof.

...
My bees could be feral but I suspected they came from another beekeeper I have heard is nearby.

How does one recognize feral bees..surely there are not many, if any pure strains left as they must be breeding with kept bees?
...

As per drstitson, you seem to be confusing 'feral' (living in the wild without beekeeper assistance - as in your mum's roof) and 'native' (original wild bees native to this part of the world).

It would be surprising if there were any absolutely pure-bred native bees in the UK, feral or otherwise.
There are enthusiasts for bees of the native type ("AMM") - but those controversies don't need to be part of a thread on varroa treatment ...

If you want to learn more (there are books full) search for
"Apis Mellifera Mellifera"
as that is what AMM is short for!
You'll find plenty pictures and descriptions ...

 

[Skyhook]

Karin Alton, Norman Carreck et al. ( laboratory of apiculture and social insects @ Sussex Uni) are trying to breed hygienic varroa resistant bees. They've been at it a few years.

I am convinced that they have got a method of testing for hygienic behaviour that works and they are now breeding from the more hygienic strains. What I remain to be convinced of (their science to date sheds no light on this at all) is that there will be proven to be a strong positive correlation between hygienic behaviour and the ability of a honey bee colony to live without treatment for varroa.

I'm keen to know how they get on.

I've never quite understood this. They are selecting for bees which remove dead larvae (killed by freezing)- which I would have thought most would do anyway. A colony has to be on the point of collapse from varroa before the larvae are dying in their cells, so I don't see the correlation.

I know the Swindon bee man was trying to select for grooming behaviour which seems to make more sense, but I'm not sure how much progress he was making with it.

.

 

[Poly Hive]

Most are assuming there is a complete brood break during winter.

Not necessarily so... The Mobus research at Craibstone suggested as much as 2lbs of bees hatched over the "broodless" months...

PH