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Thymol resistance?

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Skyhook 

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Some of you may remember that I've had varroa problems, with 3 applications of apiguard still leaving a high drop at the end. I assumed this was some sort of operator error, although I can't see what. (original thread http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7242 )

Talking to a local bee farmer at an association meeting, he said he uses apistan as he thinks the mites are resistant to thymol. Has anyone heard of or come across this?
 

oliver90owner 

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I think he talks out of a different orifice!

You said yourself the mite drop was 80-100 every day? That doesn't seem to me to be resistance!

If that is suggested to be an almost natural mite drop, your colony should have been dead long ago.

Perhaps less than ideal knock-down - and you indicated yourself that you had not followed the instructions of closing any OMF and reducing the entrance - but not resistance.

Regards, RAB
 

jezd 

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he said he uses apistan as he thinks the mites are resistant to thymol.
hmmm, pot, kettle, etc, I find it hard to believe any BF would say this, Apistan itself is well known for having resistance now due to overuse.
 

Hivemaker. 

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and you indicated yourself that you had not followed the instructions of closing any OMF and reducing the entrance

And this seems to be the problem in a lot of cases,some just think they know better....and some just don't know.
 

Skyhook 

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I think he talks out of a different orifice!

You said yourself the mite drop was 80-100 every day? That doesn't seem to me to be resistance!

If that is suggested to be an almost natural mite drop, your colony should have been dead long ago.

Perhaps less than ideal knock-down - and you indicated yourself that you had not followed the instructions of closing any OMF and reducing the entrance - but not resistance.

Regards, RAB
I did close the OMF- sorry if I was unclear on that. I didn't close down the entrance as the instructions say not to, but that was the only ventilation. I followed all instructions to the letter, and Dr Max Watkins at Vita didn't seem able pinpoint any reason why it shouldn't have worked.

The point about resistance is that it is partial, not like immunity. The apiguard certainly had an effect, but I suspect only a partial one either due to resistance or some other reason. People on the forum have said that with a drop of 30/ day they would expect hundreds a day on applying apiguard. I did some 'fag packet' calculations and came to the conclusion that a population of a few thousand could generate this number per day. If I'm right, then there is a partial kill, but not enough to bring numbers down significantly- the fact that the drop was still much the same 6 weeks later would go along with that.

By the way, sorry if this post duplicates, I lost it in transmission first time.
 

Finman 

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Common control stuffs are followed by researchers. They surely report if some stuff is loosing its effectevity. They are around the world.

Many hobby beekeepers like to use ineffective mehods. Why, some fobia against stuff names?
Professional beekeepers have not afford to that.
 

oliver90owner 

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Skyhook (and other inexperienced apiguard users),

I didn't close down the entrance

What exactly do you call an entrance?

You are right (well maybe), according to the instructions, but my immediate question to them would be: How do you define an entrance? That may well cause them to think or waffle a bit.

Example: National hive with historical solid floor. The floor one way up gives a 22mm wide opening (lets not say 'entrance' at this point). Invert the floor (perfectly acceptable because it was designed that way for that precise purpose) and it is down to about half. Now which is the correct way for the apiguard treatment because all hives would have a more than sufficient entrance at full width of the second option.

Therefore one can expect that a full width 22mm gap is not really simply an entrance as no more than half width of the hivee would make more than an entranc. Often an entrance to a feral colony would be a good deal less.

I rarely leave an entrance full width at 22mm and often it is much less than half the width of the opening. That is not the same as closing it down, actually making it slightly larger than it is needed. 22mm full width is an opening far larger than an entrance - just watch your bees, they will use one side, or section, nearly all the time.

The message I get from their instruction is not to 'restrict' the entrance, and that 'excess' ventilation is bad for efficacy. Stands to reason that a huge excessive opening is certainly not needed so I would already have reduced the opening to make the entrance, but not be restrictive to the bees. We know that thymol vapour is heavier than air, so will tend to 'fall out ' of the hive at the bottom.

Further consider those that have an entrance which is not at the bottom of the brood box - what should they do?

Yes, the instructions from suppliers of potentially damaging chemicals are always going to err on the side to their advantage (no, or fewer, claims for losses) - that is one reason why the users don't get as high efficacies as the more carefully controlled Vita results, I would suggest.

So the question comes down to what is an entrance? With a wasp threat, most people only reduce what I would call the opening to an entrance. I certainly rarely ever restrict an entrance, unless wasp activity is seriously threatening the colony.

A combination of low thymol vapourising rate, due to lower temperatures, and more simply floating harmlessly away from the hive meaning a 'lower than sufficient' concentration to terminate the mites, simply lowers the efficacy, possibly considerably.

Hope this make apiguard users think just a little more of what the manufacture really means when they glibly say 'entrance'.

Regards, RAB
 

justme 

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Sorry RAB,
I know it wasn't my post but, I'm confused I think. Do you mean cm not mm? Not sure I understand if you mean 22mm.

Sorry to be thick:.(

Di.
 

oliver90owner 

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justme,

Width of hive and width of opening are on different axes.

Sorry if I caused confusion for you, but even using length of opening (usually, the larger dimension is used for length - but not always) we would likely be considering that, in comparison with the width of the hive ie the length of the opening is about 38mm less than the width of the hive (460mm - 38mm = 422mm).

I believe my multipliers are correct. I could say metres times ten to the power of minus three, but as the font doesn't easily allow this (sensibly), using the standard SI unit is difficult - and would likely not be understood by the majority on the forum! I think I did mean mm in all the measurements used.

Still confused?

Regards, RAB
 

sleepingbear 

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Hi skyhook - I think your apiguard is working perfectly (in fact, brilliantly!). I suspect, but don't know as I've never met your bees, that you simply have (or had!) lots of varroa, hence the large drop. Perhaps you may want to consider thinking of it a bit more postively - you are killing tons of the little red bleeders! Good luck, fingers crossed for the winter for you.
 

drstitson 

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justme

A fully open, full depth entrance aperture is 22mm x 420(ish)mm.

Most people treating hives would significantly reduce this using an entrance block.
 

oliver90owner 

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That was my point. That is the opening available. The entrance is probably much lees than half of the available opening.

RAB
 
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paint it yellow and it would be lemonentry:rofl:
 

Skyhook 

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Skyhook (and other inexperienced apiguard users),

I didn't close down the entrance

What exactly do you call an entrance?

Regards, RAB
Just to clarify- 10mm wide entrance, full width of hive.
 

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