Thymol or no thymol in your winter feed?

[Ian123]

https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/full_html/2010/02/m09043/m09043.html
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/01-046 R.N. Rice.pdf
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00891923/document
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2016.1189231

 

[JamezF]

The OP's quote still appears on the BBKA website. It's undated, but Magaret Murdin was only President between 2018 and 2020. In November 2018, an article in BBKA News written by someone at the NBU said "Treatment with thymol (at 100ppm) in syrup increases the lifespan of bees infected with Nosema ceranae, slightly reduces the number of Nosema spores and slows the rate of infection.", referencing the paper quoted above.

I struggle to see how that can be turned into "ineffective" unless you wish to redefine "ineffective" to mean "doesn't provide a 100% cure", in which case perhaps a significant number of modern medicines might also be considered "ineffective". A qualified "inadequate" or "insufficient" I might consider acceptable (unless there's later research demonstrating that it is in fact more efficacious than originally thought).

I can find no later reference in BBKA News suggesting that later research invalidates that paper (nor in fact any articles referencing both thymol and Nosema), though there are a few articles, including several from Anne Rowberry (currently BBKA President?) stating that the treatment for Nosema should (must?) be a Bailey comb change.

James

 

[Garry R]

I believe that an acetic acid fumigation of super frames after extraction helps with nosema. I store my wet frames in old fridges and freezers with a small loaf silicone "tin" with about 1cm 80% acetic acid for fumigation in it. Wax moth don't like that either!! When the supers go back on in the spring the bees don't hold back.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

though there are a few articles, including several from Anne Rowberry (currently BBKA President?) stating that the treatment for Nosema should (must?) be a Bailey comb change

ah yes - the petition generator. Another ineffective blowhard who likes to lecture everyone as to what they should do. It's a wonder that shook swarm isn't mentioned

 

[rossbyjove]

Just confirmed my opinion. She's like Liz Truss : engages mouth first and brain follows several million seconds later. (apologies to anyone who thinks Liz Truss is wonderful)

The trussers ought to be the ones saying sorry.
Having said that after the debacle of the last PM, my parents have doubled down on their right wingness (refuse point blank to admit they made a mistake EVER).
The nearly dead voting for a future they won't have to live in.

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

The OP's quote still appears on the BBKA website. It's undated, but Magaret Murdin was only President between 2018 and 2020. In November 2018, an article in BBKA News written by someone at the NBU said "Treatment with thymol (at 100ppm) in syrup increases the lifespan of bees infected with Nosema ceranae, slightly reduces the number of Nosema spores and slows the rate of infection.", referencing the paper quoted above.

I struggle to see how that can be turned into "ineffective" unless you wish to redefine "ineffective" to mean "doesn't provide a 100% cure", in which case perhaps a significant number of modern medicines might also be considered "ineffective". A qualified "inadequate" or "insufficient" I might consider acceptable (unless there's later research demonstrating that it is in fact more efficacious than originally thought).

I can find no later reference in BBKA News suggesting that later research invalidates that paper (nor in fact any articles referencing both thymol and Nosema), though there are a few articles, including several from Anne Rowberry (currently BBKA President?) stating that the treatment for Nosema should (must?) be a Bailey comb change.

James

This thread feels a bit like jumping straight into Season 3. I think I need more awareness of previous discussions here on how thymol works against Nosema. To be fair, I think this thread is more about the BBKA than Nosema!

In the OP, the BBKA President at the time stated that there was no approved treatment in the UK for Nosema and that included thymol. I guess that's factually accurate. Interesting then that BBKA News published the article mentioned by @JamezF above.

There seems to be a good body of research that thymol is beneficial to bees afflicted with Nosema, and there's a suggestion that it might harm bees too ('one should be careful with the preventive, uncontrolled, and excessive use of thymol').

I've not yet got round to doing tests for Nosema on my own bees. I've no idea what levels exist in my colonies. Also, I've not ever used Apiguard for mite control.

But I do have thymol. I got it to stop syrup going mouldy. It works.

Is there an 'accepted' practice of using thymol in syrup in autumn as a treatment for Nosema? Is 'approval' an issue? Presumably not if one can point to the NBU saying that 'Treatment with thymol (at 100ppm) in syrup... is beneficial to bees in dealing with Nosema.

 

[Erichalfbee]

This thread feels a bit like jumping straight into Season 3. I think I need more awareness of previous discussions here on how thymol works against Nosema. To be fair, I think this thread is more about the BBKA than Nosema!

In the OP, the BBKA President at the time stated that there was no approved treatment in the UK for Nosema and that included thymol. I guess that's factually accurate. Interesting then that BBKA News published the article mentioned by @JamezF above.

There seems to be a good body of research that thymol is beneficial to bees afflicted with Nosema, and there's a suggestion that it might harm bees too ('one should be careful with the preventive, uncontrolled, and excessive use of thymol').

I've not yet got round to doing tests for Nosema on my own bees. I've no idea what levels exist in my colonies. Also, I've not ever used Apiguard for mite control.

But I do have thymol. I got it to stop syrup going mouldy. It works.

Is there an 'accepted' practice of using thymol in syrup in autumn as a treatment for Nosema? Is 'approval' an issue? Presumably not if one can point to the NBU saying that 'Treatment with thymol (at 100ppm) in syrup... is beneficial to bees in dealing with Nosema.

Look in the stickies.
I have had an issue with clinical nosema after the introduction of a nuc from elsewhere some years ago. I sprayed the bees with a thymol syrup at a higher concentration than the one we use for winter feed. Anecdotal yes but it worked.

 

[Robinredcar]

It definitely stops syrup going mouldy

 

[Garry R]

Nosema is designated as a fungus. Mould is a fungus. Thymol is antifungal. It does stop mould in syrup. Does it knock back nosema? I think it helps.

 

[Ian123]

https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/full_html/2010/02/m09043/m09043.html
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/01-046 R.N. Rice.pdf
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00891923/document
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2016.1189231

There’s enough evidence there to suggests it helps with nosema!! Many have used it for decades and see far less nosema than our friends that don’t. As to detrimental effects I’ve seen none and suffered fewer losses than the average bbka member over the years…

 

[Beesnaturally]

Here's a question: might thymol in syrup help lower varroa mite reproduction?

 

[Ian123]

Here's a question: might thymol in syrup help lower varroa mite reproduction?

I’ve seen a few claim that and perhaps offer anecdotal evidence but nothing more than back yard theorists….We do have a few of those interrupting reproduction may be stretching it perhaps it’s a little extra grooming because they hate the stink.

 

[blackcloud]

Perhaps they should keep bees, they wouldn't have the time for all these exams...

In defence of the BBKa I would have to say

 

[madasafish]

An old beekeeper asked me - indirectly - for help with nosema. I gave him -indirectly - a small amount of Hivemaker's thymol solution. (and instructions)
Fast forward three weeks and many thanks: nosema is cured.

Words fail me.

 

[Nige.Coll]

For someone with a photographic memory, this is a major brain fart.
Why are people alowed to go on a personal rant under the heading of the BBKA.
I know it stands for BS bluster and KA but oh my.
I suppose apart from it extending the life of nosemic bees and reducing the spore load by 50% it doesn't do much else according to the research. We've all seen the real effects of it on colonies in our apiaries, well I have anyway. I remember the phone calls with Pete about nosema when I kept those daft black things, if they saw a tractor they started painting the hive brown.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Here's a question: might thymol in syrup help lower varroa mite reproduction?

No

 

[blackcloud]

Clickbait?

 

[Hachi]

Generous? my god you've promoted the fools to the status of a government department AND mentioned working together in the same sentence -

A triumph of hope over reality.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I’ve seen a few claim that and perhaps offer anecdotal evidence but nothing more than back yard theorists….We do have a few of those interrupting reproduction may be stretching it perhaps it’s a little extra grooming because they hate the stink.

Any help at all would however low adaptive pressure, increasing vulnerability to mites though, in theory at least, wouldn't it? (You did know that was lurking in the wings didn't you? )

 

[elainemary]

A new paper has been published (read about it on the Scottish beekeepers FB site) which concludes thymol could be helpful if reducing spore loads in infected bees, however it can be detrimental in healthy bees by reducing bee longevity and altering gene expression. My take out is test your bees and look for spores under the microscope first, rather than using liberally on all colonies. Summary and link below.

Summary:
In the European Union, there is no registered product for the control of the honey bee endoparasite Nosema ceranae. Thus, researchers are looking for options for Nosema treatment. The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of a natural essential-oil ingredient (thymol) derived from Thymus vulgaris on honey bees infected with N. ceranae. Thymol exerted certain positive effects (increasing bee survival, immunity, and antioxidative protection), as well as positively affecting the spore loads in Nosema-infected bees. However, when applied to Nosema-free bees, thymol caused certain health disorders; therefore, beekeepers should be careful with its use.

https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4450/13/7...fcx_MaFGCJfnD70Z07VkZl8K0KLaJ5uxsX_cnvlQ5LODQ