Thymol or no thymol in your winter feed?

[jenkinsbrynmair]

A new paper has been published (read about it on the Scottish beekeepers FB site) which concludes thymol could be helpful if reducing spore loads in infected bees, however it can be detrimental in healthy bees by reducing bee longevity and altering gene expression.

Well what it actually says is that it could have a detrimental effect but that further research needs to be done, I think I'll carry on as I am at the moment rather than jump to conclusions, and see what they come up with.

 

[Erichalfbee]

My take out is test your bees and look for spores under the microscope first, rather than using liberally on all colonies.

Nobody is suggesting using it liberally. The amount of thymol added to winter feed is tiny.
Treating a clinical infection uses five times that amount and is probably more significant. Not treating at all has its own sequelae.
Testing for nosema is problematic as it is endemic in our colonies
For me an article like this, while interesting in itself has little practical application.

 

[Murox]

Well what it actually says is that it could have a detrimental effect but that further research needs to be done, I think I'll carry on as I am at the moment rather than jump to conclusions, and see what they come up with.

Nobody is suggesting using it liberally. The amount of thymol added to winter feed is tiny.
Treating a clinical infection uses five times that amount and is probably more significant. Not treating at all has its own sequelae.
Testing for nosema is problematic as it is endemic in our colonies
For me an article like this, while interesting in itself has little practical application.

I agree with you both the last sentence in the "discussion" section is quite clear
"Keeping in mind the obtained results, one should be careful with the preventive, uncontrolled, and excessive use of thymol. Further research should be conducted in order to determine the possible mechanisms of thymol activity when applied to infected and uninfected bees."

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Spotted this.
View attachment 33485

Interestingly I've just had a list of zoom talks for the YBKA winter program. 28th February 2023 has a talk entitled "Nosema: How to diagnose and what to do about it - Lynne Ingram".
The talk for 31st January 2023 is " Hive Ventilation - the bees and us - Derek Mitchell"

 

[elainemary]

Nobody is suggesting using it liberally. The amount of thymol added to winter feed is tiny.
Treating a clinical infection uses five times that amount and is probably more significant. Not treating at all has its own sequelae.
Testing for nosema is problematic as it is endemic in our colonies
For me an article like this, while interesting in itself has little practical application.

The researchers applied at a strength that would be used for treatment which is what I meant by liberal use. Agree the amount used for ensuring sugar solution doesn’t turn black is very small. It’s often recommended to treat all colonies in an apiary for ‘infections’ such as Efb, varroa, this is a case where it’s not a good idea. I posted to highlight latest research showing the potential risks of using at full strength on non infected colonies.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I posted to highlight latest research showing the potential risks

potential possible risk as there is no real proof that it is harmful

 

[Ian123]

Just to add to the mix one of the reports I posted showed increased longevity in those bees fed thymol. Take info in small reports with a pinch of salt, one quoted recently claimed feeding ordinary syrup reduced life span. It doesn’t research the reasons and could simply be these bees are having to work hard. Yet any sensible proactive beek knows that feeding colonies that are light will improve winter survival overall. I’d happily take a slightly shorter life span on Autumn bees if it improves hive hygiene and reduces nosema load in winter and early Spring bees. Something the report does not qualify!

 

[Erichalfbee]

It’s often recommended to treat all colonies in an apiary for ‘infections’ such as Efb, varroa,

Not here it isn’t. I’ve never read anybody on this forum suggesting that thymol ( in syrup) be used for EFB or varroa. They would soon be corrected.

 

[Ian123]

Here it is………bees live longer when fed thymol!!!!…we are saved

3.2. Bee survival​

For each of the six groups the survival curves fitted the Gompertz distribution. Results from survival analysis (Fig. 1) showed that 13 days after the beginning of the experiment, about 90% of the bees were still alive in all groups, independently from the kind of formulation or a.i. During the following days, differences among treatments became apparent, as the bees fed with thymol and resveratrol treated syrup lived significantly longer than bees fed with control syrup and with treated and control candy (Tab. I). No differences were detected in the survival of bees fed with the two a.i. within each formulation mode (Tab. I). These differences were significant even after Bonferroni adjustement.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It’s often recommended to treat all colonies in an apiary for ‘infections’ such as Efb

never heard that one!

 

[Swarm]

Misunderstanding? I think Elaine possibly means recommended advice is to treat all colonies in an apiary where infection is found, not that thymol use is being recommended.

 

[elainemary]

Misunderstanding? I think Elaine possibly means recommended advice is to treat all colonies in an apiary where infection is found, not that thymol use is being recommended.

Yes that’s what I meant, def not thymol for efb or varroa! I remember in my first season I bought a Nuc that I built up into a colony and it had heavy nosema so I used 4x Manley strength on advice. It died over winter. Dysentery exacerbated by nosema. I recall thinking should I feed this to other colonies as a precaution (don’t think the ‘treatment’ had a part in this, clearly the infection was too bad). Now I would be much more careful and why I shared this topical research.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Anecdotally, clinical Nosema responded very well to Thymol sprayed onto the frames three times, once every four days
I was surprised how well a badly infected colony responded

 

[The Poot]

So adding Hive Alive to the syrup, in that it contains thymol, should be beneficial? I seem to remember negativity on here about it? Perhaps that was to do with the price?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So adding Hive Alive to the syrup, in that it contains thymol, should be beneficial? I seem to remember negativity on here about it? Perhaps that was to do with the price?

thymol is probably the only active ingredient in it - the rest is just snakeoil but it's the only way you can get it past the VMD stazi but yes, the only 'negativity' was price and all the hype about it being a wonder 'tonic' etc. It's just expensive HM's thymol mix with added bits for colour

 

[steve1958]

I think the benefits of HiveAlive are due to it helping to maintain intestinal well being.
Against both Nosema apis and Nosema ceranae.

Adding hivealive to the winter feed also prevents fermentation and mould.
Possibly because one of the ingredients is Thymol.

Yes there was some negativity amongst some members on here, but the majority of people that have used it, including myself report positive benefits.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes there was some negativity amongst some members on here, but the majority of people that have used it, including myself report positive benefits.

As opposed to thymol or no additive at all?

 

[Amari]

Here it is………bees live longer when fed thymol!!!!…we are saved

3.2. Bee survival​

For each of the six groups the survival curves fitted the Gompertz distribution. Results from survival analysis (Fig. 1) showed that 13 days after the beginning of the experiment, about 90% of the bees were still alive in all groups, independently from the kind of formulation or a.i. During the following days, differences among treatments became apparent, as the bees fed with thymol and resveratrol treated syrup lived significantly longer than bees fed with control syrup and with treated and control candy (Tab. I). No differences were detected in the survival of bees fed with the two a.i. within each formulation mode (Tab. I). These differences were significant even after Bonferroni adjustement.

Am I the only one on here who's never heard of the Gompertz distribution or the Bonferroni adjustment?

I vaguely remember the Gaussian distribution and "Gentlemen, please adjust your dress before leaving the lavatory".

 

[Mint Bee]

thymol is probably the only active ingredient in it - the rest is just snakeoil but it's the only way you can get it past the VMD stazi but yes, the only 'negativity' was price and all the hype about it being a wonder 'tonic' etc. It's just expensive HM's thymol mix with added bits for colour

Stazi is inappropriate. just more government employees carrying out the governments wishes, like yourself
I can see no evidence that it is approved as a medicine by the VMD or any other agency. This is sold as a feed supplement, so not under their remit even though it indicates clinical benefits on the vendors website. a bit of a grey area.

 

[Murox]

............. no evidence that it is approved as a medicine by the VMD or any other agency. This is sold as a feed supplement, so not under their remit even though it indicates clinical benefits on the vendors website. a bit of a grey area.

I am more cynical and see it as sneaky sly marketing. One does not have to look very hard to find all manner of less than honest marketing, and fraudulent health benefits listed on all manner of products. What are the listed ingredients ??? This is just one more example until I am proven wrong.