This kind of bee keeping feels wrong somehow...

[user 6228]

Surley soil IS all those things, therefore it does have inate fertility.

Semantics : Then how do you get infertile soil if fertility is "inate".

True Sustainability is hard science not warm fuzzy hand waving.
Its just like riding a bicycle - it looks simple, feels simple, but it isnt.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Semantics : Then how do you get infertile soil if fertility is "inate".

By removing or damaging significant constituent parts of it.
E.g - a tree is inately wooden unless I cut it down and burn it.

You could argue that in that case it is no longer soil or that it's no longer a tree.....but that would be semantics

 

[user 6228]

"Unless Perone can back up his ideas with measured reduced stress I think he should be imprisoned for cruelty"
What utter pollocks! As I've clearly set out, the claims are that he keeps productive healthy bees using his unique hive and hands off management style - just because you don't like that is no reason to accuse him of all sorts of tosh with no proof, and is utterly nonsensical - by the same token, if you lost the occasional colony, or have to feed, or use chemicals, he could very reasonably accuse you of "cruelty" as your methods are less successful than his...

At present, we do not have the evidence of UK trials to judge the efficacy of the method in Europe - they are being undertaken now.......

As for soils, it is the entire eco-system in soil which imparts it's "innate fertility" - sadly too much soil is being rendered totally infertile due to the killing off of those complex symbiotic systems by hefty "artificial" inputs, which is totally unsustainable....

Assertion: Putting an organism in a container which shows a Strong preference not to reside in is cruelty.

Proof: Bees have been PROVEN to STRONGLY wish to reside in cavities with an entrance between 12 Sq cm and 30 sq cm. (Seeley and Morse 1976)

Oscar Perone's design has an entrance of 4 sq cm.

Therefore Oscar Perone practises cruelty to bees.

 

[Brosville]

Soil is naturally a mixture - the dictionary (if you have one) will tell you that it is defined as "The top layer of the earth's surface, consisting of rock and mineral particles mixed with organic matter" - also "A place or condition favorable to growth; a breeding ground" - which rather says to me that my original definition is correct - soil has an innate fertility due to the wonderful synergistic cocktail of what it contains, both alive and inanimate - too much of the worlds "soil" is being turned into a stone dead growing medium, dependant on ever larger "fixes" of inputs by Big Ag.

"True Sustainability is hard science not warm fuzzy hand waving" - is as I pointed out, not "hard science", but a clearly defined word (as above)

By the way, what is this obsession about "hand waving"?

 

[Brosville]

"Therefore Oscar Perone practises cruelty to bees" - utterly farcical!

It appears to work very well, therefore if it is proved true, it is very far from "cruelty"

" Putting an organism in a container which shows a Strong preference not to reside in is cruelty" - Oscar maintains that bees naturally prefer big hollow trees (of which there are not many), which allows the colony to grow to an optimum (large) size - if entrance size means "cruelty", then my own bees are cruel to themselves when they propolise the entrance against winter or wasp onslaught....

 

[Into the lions den]

ITLD, you are quite keen to criticise those who are sensationalistic about bee transportation yet you are perhaps happy to deliberately characterise someone in favour of population reduction as a genocidal maniac.
Let's get real - those who advocate population reduction are talking about contraception and education NOT murder. It's a perfectly sensible, valid argument.

No. these people, and the ringleader in particular were quite explicit. The reduction needed to be 'immediate'.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

No. these people, and the ringleader in particular were quite explicit. The reduction needed to be 'immediate'.

Wow. I take it back then - crazy people indeed.
However, I still believe population control is the elephant in the room when it comes to these questions of sustainability etc. We all seem to say that we need to grow more food to feed an expanding world, but very few think to say 'maybe we should try to stop the population expanding'. It is a very un-PC taboo subject because it involves us 'dictating' to other nations what they should do.

 

[Brosville]

It's an unavoidable fact that there are too many of us doing too much stuff to be sustainable in the long term - if we act now on the matter of population, all we need is education and a bit of the sort of thing we had with the anti-smoking campaign, nothing draconian - if we just leave things to run, it's a recipe for mayhem...

 

[Into the lions den]

However, I still believe population control is the elephant in the room when it comes to these questions of sustainability etc. .

On that issue we have no quarrel. Continuous population growth must hit the buffers some day. Maybe soon.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

On that issue we have no quarrel. Continuous population growth must hit the buffers some day. Maybe soon.

16 billion by 2100 (highest UN estimate).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15445092

 

[user 6228]

"Therefore Oscar Perone practises cruelty to bees" - utterly farcical!

It appears to work very well, therefore if it is proved true, it is very far from "cruelty"

" Putting an organism in a container which shows a Strong preference not to reside in is cruelty" - Oscar maintains that bees naturally prefer big hollow trees (of which there are not many), which allows the colony to grow to an optimum (large) size - if entrance size means "cruelty", then my own bees are cruel to themselves when they propolise the entrance against winter or wasp onslaught....

My point was entrance size, bees regard that as deal breaker when selecting a nest site.(Seeley - Honey bee democracy)
Go do some reading of real science rather than swallowing Oscar Perones conjectures. The size of cavity bees prefer is well known and it not above 100l its more like 40litres... That is my whole point read real science
(do you want the reference) Perone
What your bees do in desperation at being in too cold a hive (less than 150mm wood?) too near the ground (less than 5m?) is more likely to be in reaction to the accommodation you have provided.

Stores - (honey) are to get Bees over bad times, productivity has not been proven to my knowledge to be an expression of happiness.

 

[Brosville]

It appears to work - stuff that in your "scientific pipe" and puff on it! -as I said, I've seldom read such hysterical nonsense!

Some people seem to labour under the delusion that "science" is some magical totem, that when brandished makes things "right or wrong" - it is a method of research, which when fully and properly applied can help us understand the world and how it works, there are many things which have never been fully and properly researched in a scientific manner, but they have this strange way of "just working" just to confound those who don't even really grasp what "science" really is....

 

[user 6228]

It appears to work - stuff that in your "scientific pipe" and puff on it! -as I said, I've seldom read such hysterical nonsense!

Some people seem to labour under the delusion that "science" is some magical totem, that when brandished makes things "right or wrong" - it is a method of research, which when fully and properly applied can help us understand the world and how it works, there are many things which have never been fully and properly researched in a scientific manner, but they have this strange way of "just working" just to confound those who don't even really grasp what "science" really is....

Go tommorow at the Honey show and confront Professor Seeley and ask him if he thinks it is cruel to put swarms in boxes for 18 months with a 4 sq cm entrance. I'll come and watch. Oh and tell him what has "never been fully and properly researched ".

"magical totems" only work if they pass a double blind test, just like homeopathy hasn't

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Surely there is a big difference between failing to provide optimum natural conditions and cruelty.
If my dog had her way she would not wear a collar and walk on a lead. Am I being cruel in making her do those things? No, I am imposing the necessary things to make our symbiotic relationship work.
There is, of course, a line where cruelty begins but I many would call putting bees in an oversized hive with a small entrance 'cruelty'. Science cannot really define what cruelty is.

 

[Chris Luck]

The entrance space issue is not what I see here in unmanaged colonies most of which are in house and barn walls with a gap or fissure in many cases that just about allows two or three bees to pass through at the same time. These are strong colonies that survive well year on year. 4 cm sq is not unusual in the actual world although it often leads to crowding at and around the entrance in busy times.

I'll give it a go next year with a few hives just for the experience, see what goes down - shouldn't take too long to knock some up, just have to get some good timber cut, I really like chestnut if the individual boxes aren't too large.

Chris

 

[user 6228]

Surely there is a big difference between failing to provide optimum natural conditions and cruelty.
If my dog had her way she would not wear a collar and walk on a lead. Am I being cruel in making her do those things? No, I am imposing the necessary things to make our symbiotic relationship work.
There is, of course, a line where cruelty begins but I many would call putting bees in an oversized hive with a small entrance 'cruelty'. Science cannot really define what cruelty is.

Read Seeley's work and you will see why I picked that one of the many ills of Mr Perones design.

As regards the dog would you consider it cruel to put in it a car with just little ventilation in the heat of the day?
5 kg of biomass to be ventilated through a 4 sq cm hole

 

[mbc]

How do I work it out? - less inputs all round for a start - the hives are very simple, and can be made from recycled timber - I use no foundation (saves the energy used in making frames/foundation), very seldom use any sugar (which these days comes from chemical-soaked monocultures and has to be packed/carted around the countryside) - no queen replacements using imports
(at the most horrendous environmental cost, and disease risk) - minimal interference (low labour costs), no routine use of "chemicals" etc etc etc...

Having said that, I know people who use National hives and run them in a similar manner, so as I said the hive type isn't of prime importance, management style and attitude is.......

All your points apart from frames and foundation could apply to conventional hives.
I believe the movable frame hive makes beekeeping so much easier, efficient and productive that the small investment in timber, machining and wax processing is far outweighed by the benefits, making my hives gentler on the environment per pound of honey.

Derekm - your posts are hysterical nonsense. Not worth reading IMHO( weve all seen swarms move into cavities with tiny entrances eg. metal fence posts )

 

[user 6228]

All your points apart from frames and foundation could apply to conventional hives.
I believe the movable frame hive makes beekeeping so much easier, efficient and productive that the small investment in timber, machining and wax processing is far outweighed by the benefits, making my hives gentler on the environment per pound of honey.

Derekm - your posts are hysterical nonsense. Not worth reading IMHO( weve all seen swarms move into cavities with tiny entrances eg. metal fence posts )

if you believe putting 5kg of animal in a wooden box in the sun with only 4 sq cm to respire through isnt cruelty and is hysterical nonsense where is your reasoning.
What creatures do when faced with no alternative is not reasoned justification.

 

[The Cumbrian]

Surley soil IS all those things, therefore it does have inate fertility.

Almost exactly the words I would have used.

 

[mbc]

if you believe putting 5kg of animal in a wooden box in the sun with only 4 sq cm to respire through isnt cruelty and is hysterical nonsense where is your reasoning.
What creatures do when faced with no alternative is not reasoned justification.

Huge alternatives every time. Scout bees will fly miles in search of suitable cavities and still choose odd ( to humans ) places to take up residence. I like to believe the evidence of my own eyes when reasoning things out.
I stand by my assertion that your wild allegations of cruelty are hysterical nonsense not worth reading.
Are you sure Prof. Seeley would back you up on your black and white ignorance ?