This kind of bee keeping feels wrong somehow...

[victor meldrew]

I am somewhat at a loss to understand precisely what you are trying to impart - perhaps clarification of the "myth" statement would be a start.........

Nearly a first though usually I disagree with presentation rather than theme!
Well cared for bees thrive Fact .
Most amateur beekeepers care well for their bees fact .
Small commercial outfits care for their bees fact .
A point of balance occurs at which the driving factor is profit above welfare 1
This is when major problems occur .
We small men however, try to follow where the bee leads , we try to accommodate the bees natural instincts regarding Swarming etc , not by prevention but by deception so as not to frustrate the working of the colony !
Constantly exchanging bees , throwing frames of unrelated bees together as often seen in the vids, unmetered quantities of antibiotica shovelled on frame tops , humping bees around with no regard is bound to create the circumstances leading up to the problems in the USA.
I could go on but you get the general idea!
VM

 

[Chris Luck]

I tend to agree with your post as well VM.

I would certainly emphasise "A point of balance occurs at which the driving factor is profit above welfare".

Chris

 

[mbc]

I am somewhat at a loss to understand precisely why you imply Warre beekeepers take more account of the environment than other beekeepers.
Thats one myth Brossy
IMO the most environmentally friendly way to keep bees is the way that facilitates keeping lots of them in an efficient manner, getting the most nutritious food and doing the most pollinating.
Cant think why a Warre would help any of these aims, maybe you count leaking swarms into the countryside as a higher environmental priority than producing honey or doing a job of pollinating

 

[greatbritishhoney]

with VM

I would also add that one does not need necessarily need 80,000 hives to have an understanding of what is good / bad for a colony of bees.
Yes, there may be a lack of understanding about exactly how US commercial beekeepers operate, but the principles of good animal husbandry have a certain amount of intrinsic truth whether you are talking about 1 hive or thousands.

 

[Brosville]

Re the Warre thing - any sort of hive can be run "badly" or in a non-sustainable manner - often the criticism levelled at top bar hives is that they aren't "economically viable" - I've seen figures suggesting that Warres can be run "commercially" and profitably without using many of the practices deemed "necessary" by many beekeepers.
The hive type doesn't make a whole heap of difference, management techniques and attitudes do - as a user of Warre hives, I don't use foundation, clip/mark/confine/cull/replace queens, I don't try to stop swarming (whoopee, another new colony!), nor do I cull drone brood, or swipe all the honey and replace with sugar etc etc - I think it is a fair claim that it is "nearer natural" than many management methods, and is certainly gentler on the environment

"the most environmentally friendly way to keep bees is the way that facilitates keeping lots of them in an efficient manner" is quite frankly plain wrong - if you keep too many bees in a given area, they won't thrive, and if there's a vast apiary there is every chance of disease sweeping through it (or kept at bay with inputs of chemicals) - smaller apiaries in diversely planted areas are far more likely to thrive....

 

[mbc]

" any sort of hive can be run "badly" or in a non-sustainable manner "

"The hive type doesn't make a whole heap of difference, management techniques and attitudes do "
IMO both true

"and is certainly gentler on the environment"
How do you work that out ? I'd put money on my conventional hives being just as gentle on the environment, arguably more so

""the most environmentally friendly way to keep bees is the way that facilitates keeping lots of them in an efficient manner" is quite frankly plain wrong - if you keep too many bees in a given area, they won't thrive, ."
Again, nonsense. You equate "efficient manner" with "too many bees in a given area" a contradiction surely ?

"smaller apiaries in diversely planted areas are far more likely to thrive...."
I agree

 

[Brosville]

How do I work it out? - less inputs all round for a start - the hives are very simple, and can be made from recycled timber - I use no foundation (saves the energy used in making frames/foundation), very seldom use any sugar (which these days comes from chemical-soaked monocultures and has to be packed/carted around the countryside) - no queen replacements using imports
(at the most horrendous environmental cost, and disease risk) - minimal interference (low labour costs), no routine use of "chemicals" etc etc etc...

Having said that, I know people who use National hives and run them in a similar manner, so as I said the hive type isn't of prime importance, management style and attitude is.......

 

[user 6228]

Nearly a first though usually I disagree with presentation rather than theme!
Well cared for bees thrive Fact .
Most amateur beekeepers care well for their bees fact .
Small commercial outfits care for their bees fact .
A point of balance occurs at which the driving factor is profit above welfare 1
This is when major problems occur .
We small men however, try to follow where the bee leads , we try to accommodate the bees natural instincts regarding Swarming etc , not by prevention but by deception so as not to frustrate the working of the colony !
Constantly exchanging bees , throwing frames of unrelated bees together as often seen in the vids, unmetered quantities of antibiotica shovelled on frame tops , humping bees around with no regard is bound to create the circumstances leading up to the problems in the USA.
I could go on but you get the general idea!
VM

In my opinion most amateur and commercial outfits BELIEVE they care for their bees.
But how much are they doing that can be proven to be of benefit to the bees? how much can you back up with research? There's plenty been done (most researched colony insect is?) but little is cited here.

Topics that are frequently discussed here as being frequently practised that could be questioned:

1. poorly insulated hives, (regardless of cold and heat stress)
2. stopping inspections in early autumn,(dereliction of care?)
3. closing up entrances, (regardless of bee traffic, and bee stress)
4. entrances too big
5. hives close to the ground
6. top entrances and vents in winter (u.s. practice)
7. routine treatments( regardless of need)
8. heavy feeding in autumn( regardless of need again)
9. Bees in the post
10. clipping of wings
11. metal mesh floors
12. killing queens off for "bad behaviour" of their progeny
13. smoke

The tower hive devised by the south american guy is justified with what exactly?

Is "sustainable" now just marketing jargon?

Just because a parson a hundred years ago
, or a bushman, or fred "he is a good chap" has devised something it doesnt mean its correct or worthwhile

 

[Skyhook]

Indigo pollen ? Havent seen it myself.

Ok, but will you settle for red, orange, yellow, green, blue and violet?

Today i had a look at one hive which i NEEDED to see if the queen was accepted. And while i was in i saw a frame of pollen and i have to say it did not resemble a rainbow. It was yellow. and before you say i am in a monoculture area im not we have pasture and bad pasture at that. lots of old hedges which is of course supplying yellow pollen i imagine there might be traces of other stuff in there at the moment but i can tell you the frame was wall to wall yellow pollen.

Fair comment- but you're not going to get a great variety in the last week of October. That is pretty much a 'monoculture' of ivy, but as a brief phenomenon. Look again April- August.

 

[Skyhook]

Could you tell me your name and current status please Lions Den?

Chris

Are you serious? Try reading his posts history.

 

[Brosville]

"The tower hive devised by the south american guy is justified with what exactly?" - this presumably will be the "automatic" hive from Oscar Perone in Argentina - here's a video explaining the concept by someone who is trying them out in the UK - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9uVzPgfnM4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9uVzPgfnM4[/ame]

In brief, it is completely "interference free" beekeeping - the hive is erected, and the owner "walks away" and returns 18 months down the line (and then annually) just to collect the honey and replace the boxes - the claim is that there are no disease problems as the colonies can grow to an optimum large size, and can deal with anything nature throws at them. Oscar Perone runs them commercially all over Argentina (parts of which have a very similar climate to our own), so it is certainly a development worthy of further investigation.
There is a large and sprawling website (which is fairly hard going even with Google translate) on the whole method

 

[Chris Luck]

Of course I was serious Skyhook, I don't read all the posts on here - my life doesn't revolve around this forum or even bees for that matter.....

....anyway, I've now been informed by PM thank you.

...people and their silly forum names eh?

Chris

 

[Brosville]

ps - "sustainable" - no marketing buzz word at all - a reasonable definition in this context is "capable of being maintained at a steady level without exhausting natural resources or causing ecological damage"

 

[user 6228]

"The tower hive devised by the south american guy is justified with what exactly?" - this presumably will be the "automatic" hive from Oscar Perone in Argentina - here's a video explaining the concept by someone who is trying them out in the UK - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9uVzPgfnM4

In brief, it is completely "interference free" beekeeping - the hive is erected, and the owner "walks away" and returns 18 months down the line (and then annually) just to collect the honey and replace the boxes - the claim is that there are no disease problems as the colonies can grow to an optimum large size, and can deal with anything nature throws at them. Oscar Perone runs them commercially all over Argentina (parts of which have a very similar climate to our own), so it is certainly a development worthy of further investigation.
There is a large and sprawling website (which is fairly hard going even with Google translate) on the whole method

I looked at this in some detail... there's nothing to back it up that i can detect except hand waving, as for bee welfare?

 

[user 6228]

ps - "sustainable" - no marketing buzz word at all - a reasonable definition in this context is "capable of being maintained at a steady level without exhausting natural resources or causing ecological damage"

Sustainable is now tacked on to everything trying to be pushed into the "green market" be it a product or an idea.... Making something out of old pallets doesnt make it sustainable, for example if the bees need twice the food (flower nectar or otherwise) to run it and double the risk of failure overwintering.
"Sustainable" has to be backed with numbers and evidence otherwise its a marketing adjective.

 

[Brosville]

"there's nothing to back it up that i can detect except hand waving, as for bee welfare?"

Yet again, your meaning is unclear - Oscar Perone claims that his bees are revoltingly healthy* due to the hive and management methods - he certainly produces gobbets of good honey in a very "low tech" and sustainable way - as to whether his claims are accurate, and whether the technique will also work in Europe is a matter for conjecture - the couple in the video are making a brave attempt to find out - I've met them (I shot the video), and they are open and sincere in "wanting to find out" - they're making no claims, the experiment has only just started - I for one will be very interested to see the results

*surely "bee welfare" is keeping healthy productive bees....

 

[Brosville]

""Sustainable" has to be backed with numbers and evidence otherwise its a marketing adjective" is yet again rather inaccurate - it's the Mr Micawber thing - if you take more than you are replacing, ultimately it is not sustainable - THAT simple! (you can bung "numbers and evidence" in along the way, but things are either sustainable or not)....
We are running out of the fossil fuel inputs for "Big Ag" style growing, it destroys the soil's innate fertility, therefore it is clearly not sustainable (we can't go on doing it!)

"for example if the bees need twice the food (flower nectar or otherwise) to run it and double the risk of failure overwintering" - if the earlier post had been read, it is claimed this does not arise with this type of hive/management...

 

[user 6228]

""Sustainable" has to be backed with numbers and evidence otherwise its a marketing adjective" is yet again rather inaccurate - it's the Mr Micawber thing - if you take more than you are replacing, ultimately it is not sustainable - THAT simple! (you can bung "numbers and evidence" in along the way, but things are either sustainable or not)....
We are running out of the fossil fuel inputs for "Big Ag" style growing, it destroys the soil's innate fertility, therefore it is clearly not sustainable (we can't go on doing it!)

"for example if the bees need twice the food (flower nectar or otherwise) to run it and double the risk of failure overwintering" - if the earlier post had been read, it is claimed this does not arise with this type of hive/management...

Unless Perone can back up his ideas with measured reduced stress I think he should be imprisoned for cruelty. Anything that doesnt work without a full on prime swarm and then puts them in a cavity they wouldnt chose if they had a choice is cruelty plain and simple. More honey does not imply reduced stress.

"inate fertility" is just the newage myth I was talking about. Soil doesnt have inate fertility,Its the organisms that fix nitrogen, the decay of plants, faeces and animal matter and the weathering of rock particles and the leaching of micronutrients, the worms, the insects, the microbes and us.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Soil doesnt have inate fertility,Its the organisms that fix nitrogen, the decay of plants, faeces and animal matter and the weathering of rock particles and the leaching of micronutrients, the worms, the insects, the microbes and us.

Surley soil IS all those things, therefore it does have inate fertility.

 

[Brosville]

"Unless Perone can back up his ideas with measured reduced stress I think he should be imprisoned for cruelty"
What utter pollocks! As I've clearly set out, the claims are that he keeps productive healthy bees using his unique hive and hands off management style - just because you don't like that is no reason to accuse him of all sorts of tosh with no proof, and is utterly nonsensical - by the same token, if you lost the occasional colony, or have to feed, or use chemicals, he could very reasonably accuse you of "cruelty" as your methods are less successful than his...

At present, we do not have the evidence of UK trials to judge the efficacy of the method in Europe - they are being undertaken now.......

As for soils, it is the entire eco-system in soil which imparts it's "innate fertility" - sadly too much soil is being rendered totally infertile due to the killing off of those complex symbiotic systems by hefty "artificial" inputs, which is totally unsustainable....