The varroa solution

[Penninetrader]

I suspect that many swarms are not actually genuinely feral. I'd not be surprised to find that an awful lot of beeks with two or three hives don't bother to mark their queens. I didn't even attempt to do so for quite a few years because I don't seem to be very good at spotting them.

James

I do not challenge that at all, for some reason and it is not being clever, I seem to be able to spot the Queens, I suspect it is just good luck. I do not mark at all, I hate disturbing the bees at all but do it and they seem to tolerate me which always amazes me. But isolating the odd hive to allow nature take it's course might help progress to where we need to be. If you are surrounded by beeks this approach will not work I think. Those of us in areas less congested can more easily progress such an approach. This is a contentious issue but the responses seem.to now be less aggressive and that is good. We all, no matter our approach, want the best for nature and our girls.

 

[Andy]

From memory, I'm sure I've read a piece by someone who was adequately-qualified to know what they were talking about (ie. had a good understanding of genetics and statistics) suggesting that the piecemeal approach is very unlikely to work (at least, without full control of the gene pool, which probably puts it out of the reach of most "hobby" beeks). I've been trying to remember where for several days, but so far without success. If I can find it, I'll post a link.

James

I had seen something similar mentioned in a YT talk. Where is the line between enough colonies and not enough?The Westerham beekeepers and others have made it work, but they also clubbed together to make a bigger pool in the first place. Also, I have seen a lot of talks saying that the genetics are recessive. But then again the Steve Riley has mentioned that they have seen that selecting from a queen with good resistance traits seems to lead strongly to more resistance queens.

 

[madasafish]

I'm puzzled by all you swarm collectors! My problem is keeping my colonies at no more than five. Just a few swarm-control measures increase the colony count like topsy! Why do you collect swarms and what do you do with them?
Dani, presumably you will have to chuck your bait hives if you aim to keep just two colonies after your projected house-move........

Simple for me.I sell nucs to beginners...Always had to struggle hard to meet demand...(Curently 10 nucs and a couple of spare Qs for next year)

 

[Beesnaturally]

I had seen something similar mentioned in a YT talk. Where is the line between enough colonies and not enough?

Its a complex question. I'm not sure it needs answering. Put out bait boxes in what you think are promising areas and just make sure they can build comb and aren't robbed. Slow-fed syrup, placed cleanly at nightfall, tiny entrances.

The Westerham beekeepers and others have made it work, but they also clubbed together to make a bigger pool in the first place. Also, I have seen a lot of talks saying that the genetics are recessive. But then again the Steve Riley has mentioned that they have seen that selecting from a queen with good resistance traits seems to lead strongly to more resistance queens.

You can do the same, or just work with what seems to be thriving over 2 or 3 years. Don't look for varroa. The most resistant colonies have varroa, but are managing it. Just look at build-up and yield - and maybe how fast they come and go. Stroppy ones make most honey I find. Mess with that at your peril.

The trick is to manage your local population, not your colonies. Don't mess it up by helping colonies - your are destroying health in the local population. Instead give your queen plenty of space (I never use excluders) to raise drones - the primary carrier of genes to the local population (or 'deme' to give it the proper term).

Have as many colonies as you can - that way you offset local treating/importing keepers. Let them swarm - but try to bait them back too! Be a manager and caretaker - and husbandryman - of your local population to as great an extent that you can. Be a still pool in the sea of madness. Give bees and queens/cells away to locals who promise to do the same.

I've always done these things, and have made some great friends with great healthy bees - despite the local commercials and orthodox keepers.

There is more to it, but those are the 'natural selection beek' basics.

 

[Murox]

There have been several studies looking at the negative effects of some commonly used chemical type miticides/Varroacides on the Queens’ reproductive patterns. (maybe a pointer to Roger Patterson observations regarding "queen problems"?) Oxalic acid sublimation doesn’t really get mentioned. Is that because Oxalic acid sublimation is not listed in the “list of recommendations” for beekeepers to use? So how does Oxalic acid affect queen fertility I wonder? that would be useful to know about. Anybody?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Roger Patterson observations regarding "queen problems

"problems" not proven, corroborated or much reported elsewhere but rather "excuses" to explain possible poor husbandry.
I can't recall many 'studies' into this "problem" either

 

[Murox]

Yes I’m sure general husbandry, nutrition (good mixed forage), location and selective breeding all play a huge part. I had been musing and reading about the notion of miticide dependency/varroa resistance and had an ‘aside thought’. The OP video link was rather overfull of sweeping generalisations which raises a multitude of questions, some of which when made went poorly answered.

 

[Swarm]

I doubt whether beekeepers who are treatment free would be concerned about the possible effects of varroa treatments on queen reproductive patterns, their queens would not come into contact with any.

 

[Murox]

Perhaps, as long as they avoid most commercially available foundation.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Perhaps, as long as they avoid most commercially available foundation.

I would say traces in comb are unlikely to have much effect, particularly if such comb is restricted to lifts. I use starter strip in brood boxes, which is where the great majority of queen action is (though that's because I want them to be able to make the cells sizes they choose). My queens seem to function more and more as queens should. Colonies produce well and are long lasting with no help from me other than brood comb rotation. I'm not sure I can ask for more.

 

[Penninetrader]

I doubt whether beekeepers who are treatment free would be concerned about the possible effects of varroa treatments on queen reproductive patterns, their queens would not come into contact with any.

Drones

 

[jimmiestan]

BN, could you please illustrate somehow how your frames use strips? <I use starter strip in brood boxes,..>
We use strips sometimes for supers, [is that what you mean by lifts?] anda single frame in bait boxes with the strip, c. 45 mm wide, attached to the upper part of the frame.

 

[Beesnaturally]

BN, could you please illustrate somehow how your frames use strips? <I use starter strip in brood boxes,..>

I buy unwired shallow foundation for normal use, and cut some of it into three strips, which I put into deep frames. These, the 'starter strips' have to be held in with hot wax - pinning as usual isn't reliable enough.

We use strips sometimes for supers, [is that what you mean by lifts?] anda single frame in bait boxes with the strip, c. 45 mm wide, attached to the upper part of the frame.

Supers=lifts=shallows. I use foundation throughout the supers. For baits I fill nucs (6*2 - a second six-frame nuc above) with frames (as described above) - and add a pheromone above the entrance. That way when a swarm comes in (sometimes I think they just 'trickle' in) they have space to cluster and will build out neatly, and I don't have to do anything until I get around to it.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Drones

Something you can't do anything about (apart from having distance), so you might as well not worry about it?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

what you mean by lifts?

lifts are used to describe the outer casings of a WBC hive - but obviously not in this case

 

[Beesnaturally]

lifts are used to describe the outer casings of a WBC hive - but obviously not in this case

I could be on my own here, but I've always used them interchangeably. It might be a local thing.

 

[Penninetrader]

I would say traces in comb are unlikely to have much effect, particularly if such comb is restricted to lifts. I use starter strip in brood boxes, which is where the great majority of queen action is (though that's because I want them to be able to make the cells sizes they choose). My queens seem to function more and more as queens should. Colonies produce well and are long lasting with no help from me other than brood comb rotation. I'm not sure I can ask for more.

You use starter strip ? is this for all frames in a brood box ? do you supplement with wire or any other form of support for the comb and do they generally form the hanging loop and not fill out. When you rotate frames could you explain a little more. Thank you

Something you can't do anything about (apart from having distance), so you might as well not worry about it?

I wa thinking more on the lines that drones play an important role beyond initial thinking. Drones from disease resistant queens propagate same to a wider audience , as it were.

 

[Beesnaturally]

You use starter strip ? is this for all frames in a brood box ?

Yes

do you supplement with wire or any other form of support for the comb and do they generally form the hanging loop and not fill out.

No and yes, the fill out all the frame

When you rotate frames could you explain a little more. Thank you

In March (weather and build-out dependent) I take one or two frames of stored honey from the outsides, and insert one or two new frames of starter strip into the nest, moving all the rest outward; and feed 1:1 syrup. The bees quickly build out the comb, the queen lays it up as fast as its built, and you give the colony a boost of bees ready for the blossom. I do the same in early June, taking a frame or two for nucs if the brood box is laid up solid.

This means that every 3-4 years all comb is renewed, 'rotated'. And I get honey and or nucs.

I wa thinking more on the lines that drones play an important role beyond initial thinking. Drones from disease resistant queens propagate same to a wider audience , as it were.

Absolutely they do. Your biggest, healthiest, colonies will lay more drones which is exactly what you want in evolutionary terms. That's why I don't restrict the queen in any way.

 

[JamezF]

I wa thinking more on the lines that drones play an important role beyond initial thinking. Drones from disease resistant queens propagate same to a wider audience , as it were.

I'm not sure this is necessarily true because the drones don't share all of the queen's genes, only half of them. Depending on how the genetics works out it could perhaps be that it's more likely that the drones won't pass on the necessary "disease resistance" genes.

I think. My knowledge of genetics is somewhat sketchy in places.

James

 

[drex]

In the talk by Steve Riley I think he says the resistance is passed down the queen line only and not via the drones