The Beehaus - 2 years down the line.

[victor meldrew]

Shizenhaus could describe one or two on here
Present company excepted of course .
VM

 

[region2]

An extra roof might be called a Howzat. Geddit?

R2

 

[thorn]

I started this thread to try and get some sensible and constructive information about a hive which is of some slight interest to me and to others. Thankfully, along with the sheer stupidity of the majority of the replies two people came forward who've worked with the Beehaus and who had something useful to say. They at least have been most helpful.

 

[Tom Bick]

If you are thinking of getting one then all I can add is whilst talking to someone the other day they knew of two people who started with them and have now got rid of them.

I don’t know what that represents but I remember a year ago on this forum it seemed more members had them than seems today, if that is down to them moving on from the forum or realising over time they just don’t live up to the sales pitch I don’t know.

What I do know is I do from time in my travels get to see one not to inspect but just observe and to me looks a sad item it’s a bit dirty, scratched and to me slightly faded not the shiny funky hive that it was sold as, on the other hand the timber hives close by are far more older and only seem to improve with age (but then I would say that)

I hope this helps

 

[jezd]

Mine has sat empty all year and still is, it seems swarms don't like them.

 

[victor meldrew]

I believe they are very good for storing equipment
VM

 

[region2]

I started this thread to try and get some sensible and constructive information about a hive which is of some slight interest to me and to others. Thankfully, along with the sheer stupidity of the majority of the replies two people came forward who've worked with the Beehaus and who had something useful to say. They at least have been most helpful.

Chilax matey - just scroll past the posts you find so 'stupid' - it's a public forum so people will/can post what they like.

R2

 

[gingerbees]

well i enjoyed the whole thread stupid and funny, not sure which category i fit into

 

[MuswellMetro]

one of our beginners bought one two years ago and he mentored with a beek who had two of robin's Dartington hives

after two years he now has a 14x12 nationals near me and i assume not using the beehaus as i saw him trying to modify the beehaus dummy and QE to work on a 14x12 national he was using as an AS split

 

[Luminos]

I started this thread to try and get some sensible and constructive information about a hive which is of some slight interest to me and to others. Thankfully, along with the sheer stupidity of the majority of the replies two people came forward who've worked with the Beehaus and who had something useful to say. They at least have been most helpful.

Your fault, Skyhook - you started it

 

[nonstandard]

......
after two years he now has a 14x12 nationals near me and i assume not using the beehaus as i saw him trying to modify the beehaus dummy and QE to work on a 14x12 national he was using as an AS split

I suspect he would have been better off selling it on eb*y as they still seem to command a good price. I still look for one coming up fairly cheaply purely as I'm open to trying one for a couple of seasons to satisfy my curiosity.

 

[DanBee]

The ease of assembly and the ease of keeping the smooth plastic clean is obviously more attractive to beekeepers with particular needs rather than the typical grumpy 'I can't stand anything new' sort of person. It is a pity though that people who have no interest in trying that design have spent so much time decrying it from their armchairs.

I suspect there were many factors at play.

The beehaus appeared to be a typical 'lifestyle' product: riding the coat tails of a fashion, "innovative", "designer", slickly-marketed, and expensive. In terms of their pedigree, Omlet were plastic chicken house makers. From the materials and construction techniques chosen, it seemed clear that they wanted to extend their chosen style to accommodate bees. Flaws were apparent in the choice of materials - cleaning of plastics, UV stability, the flimsy powder-coated metal legs, the use of corrugated plastic providing wax moth & SHB hidey holes, etc. - and also in the tolerances around frames and bee space. Not surprising that some saw this as a poor start.

Look also at the design they chose. Whatever its strengths and weaknesses, the Dartington has not taken off, is not popular, and apparently doesn't satisfy the needs of a significant number of practising beekeepers. To sell beginners a highly-priced unpopular design executed in unusual materials would quite reasonably be questionable.

The choice of the long hive design also suffered from negative connotations and associations with the top bar hive crowd; if you recall their bid for popularity was at its most vitriolic and vocal when the beehaus popped up. Being another horizontal arrangement, another "better than anything else" design, and sold with zeal would probably have lumped the beehaus and the top bar hive together in many beekeeper's perceptions, and not favourably either.

So if anyone baulked at these issues, would they stump up the high purchase price to "walk a mile in their shoes" before criticising? Most probably not. If you have experience of something similar, it is perfectly reasonable to look at a new piece of equipment and see both strengths and weaknesses.

Some, like nonstandard, will I guess pick one up 2nd hand at the £50-100 mark to give it a go, as a plaything, as and when they come across one.

I think the beehaus was a victim of poor timing, poor design, and their own ambition as entrants into a fashionable market. Fashion moves on.

 

[Brosville]

I agree wholeheartedly with most of that (but obviously) differ completely on the negative comments about TBHs and their users - "and also suffered from negative connotations and associations with the top bar hive crowd", as they're just SO wrong....

A top bar hive is about as far removed as you can get from one of these trendy overpriced chunks of garish plastic, which are the very antithesis of what most top bar users are about - natural beekeeping is about sustainability, and hives made of petrochemical derivatives that'll end up in landfill are "non-starters", so I'd suggest that any parallels drawn between the plastic monstrosities and TBHs are from a position of complete ignorance.... and had I noticed that "similarity" being mentioned at the time (which I didn't) I'd have certainly riposted with suitably waspish comments............

As for the "po-faced" brigade getting the hump when people indulged in a bit of gentle leg-pulling, they should try being a top bar user! ...........

 

[BuzzWorker]

Dan Bee said: 'Being another horizontal arrangement, another "better than anything else" design, and sold with zeal would probably have lumped the beehaus and the top bar hive together in many beekeeper's perceptions, and not favourably either'. And Brosville said: 'A top bar hive is about as far removed as you can get from one of these trendy overpriced chunks of garish plastic.'

The beehaus uses the same principle as the Dartington for getting a large productive colony that can then be divided within the same hive to avoid swarming. It was a pity that the Dartington was termed a 'long deep hive' as the significance of 'deep' has often been obscured by the 'long' which is a perjorative word in discussions on hive design.

The long deep principle is to expand the brood nest onto as many DEEP frames (12 inches deep) as the queen wants to use - usually 7 to 9. The 'long' principle comes in as the whole nest is unrestricted in length - so bees can follow their natural instinct to store honey/pollen both in front and behind the brood - typically 3 frames front and back. The complete nest is then 15 frames long. 'Deep' was meant to distinguish the Long Deep hive from the coffin hive that used standard brood frames (8 inches) and needed to be 30 frames long, which experience showed was a difficult shape for the bees to ventilate and honey was not properly ripened in wet seasons.

Bees also store honey above the brood - the heavy honey above and beside the brood buffers the brood nest when the temperature drops at night (remember, the temperature inside the brood nest has to kept at 35 deg C). To avoid crushing the brood nest downwards with a honey arch over the brood patches WITHIN the deep frames - which would force the bees to lengthen the brood nest to maintain the same brood volume, it is essential with the long deep principle to place shallow supers above the run of occupied deep frames. The whole nest then becomes 18 ins deep by 21 inches long - an acceptably compact length to height ratio of 7:6 for minimising the external surface and so retaining heat. a Deep Long hive is certainly NOT a long hive (the coffin hive had a L:H ratio of 4: 1 - a TBH about the same I suppose).

Brosville mentions that top bar beekeeping is about sustainability, which I wholeheartedly support but feel the TBH brigade has not thought the matter through carefully enough. The environmental cost of a hive that lasts even 10 years is a small part of the equation - and a ply DLD will last a century if maintained. It is the environmental burden imposed by operating the hive for human benefit that matters more. A TBH seems to pay no attention to the operating efficency of a colony in a TBH - if I understand aright, the colonies are only small and a low yield is acceptable, even virtuous. The average yield of a National is 55lbs, of a DLD say 75lbs, so let's say 25lbs for a TBH. However, a large colony needs 250lbs of honey for its own use during a year - let's say 200lbs for a small colony in a TBH. So if we say (again) that a beekeeper wants 100 lbs a year for own consumption, he needs two Nationals which will take 2 x(250+55)=610lbs of honey out of the environment - or one and a third deep long hives that take 432 lbs in total from the environment. But he needs to keep 4 TBH in order to harvest 100 lbs for himself, which will collect a total of 900 lbs of honey from the environment, about twice the amount needing to be collected using deep long hives. You may say the extra load on the environment is no problem - but the amount of collectable honey in an area is finite - more for honeybees because they are kept in TBH is less for all other insects. Sustainability is about living in the environment without overstressing it.

If you are sure that the local environment can easily provide 900 lbs, it is still more sustainable to use 21/2 long deep hives to collect 2.5x350=875lbs and yield 2.5x75=187lbs for the beekeeper. The 87lbs surplus to the beekeepers needs can be used to feed someone else, dreducing that person's impact on the environment. Are TBH at their level of operating inefficency really so virtuous after all?

Robin

 

[Mike a]

Are TBH at their level of operating inefficency really so virtuous after all?

Robin

Why does it have to be able the yield to own a TBH?

I'm sure there are many top bar keepers who choose to own a TBH based on every thing but the yield. I'm a hobbyist bee keeper with Nationals, deep nationals, dartington, deep langstroth, medium langstroth and of course a TBH. To me its not important if I get 20lbs or 2000lbs in a year I'm still happy.

I started my TBH last year, I've learnt a great deal from it and I've made many videos (some of which are posted on this site) at no point did I expect an oz of honey from it, to me it was an experiment and a lot of fun.

Would I start another one?
No, but that has nothing to do with yield.

 

[thorn]

I suspect he would have been better off selling it on eb*y as they still seem to command a good price. I still look for one coming up fairly cheaply purely as I'm open to trying one for a couple of seasons to satisfy my curiosity.

Given the apparent lack of enthusiasm from those who've bought them, I'll also look out for one selling cheap. We're probably equidistant from Jazd - which of us has the faster car?

 

[madasafish]

Brosville mentions that top bar beekeeping is about sustainability, which I wholeheartedly support but feel the TBH brigade has not thought the matter through carefully enough. The environmental cost of a hive that lasts even 10 years is a small part of the equation - and a ply DLD will last a century if maintained. It is the environmental burden imposed by operating the hive for human benefit that matters more. A TBH seems to pay no attention to the operating efficency of a colony in a TBH - if I understand aright, the colonies are only small and a low yield is acceptable, even virtuous. The average yield of a National is 55lbs, of a DLD say 75lbs, so let's say 25lbs for a TBH. However, a large colony needs 250lbs of honey for its own use during a year - let's say 200lbs for a small colony in a TBH. So if we say (again) that a beekeeper wants 100 lbs a year for own consumption, he needs two Nationals which will take 2 x(250+55)=610lbs of honey out of the environment - or one and a third deep long hives that take 432 lbs in total from the environment. But he needs to keep 4 TBH in order to harvest 100 lbs for himself, which will collect a total of 900 lbs of honey from the environment, about twice the amount needing to be collected using deep long hives. You may say the extra load on the environment is no problem - but the amount of collectable honey in an area is finite - more for honeybees because they are kept in TBH is less for all other insects. Sustainability is about living in the environment without overstressing it.

If you are sure that the local environment can easily provide 900 lbs, it is still more sustainable to use 21/2 long deep hives to collect 2.5x350=875lbs and yield 2.5x75=187lbs for the beekeeper. The 87lbs surplus to the beekeepers needs can be used to feed someone else, dreducing that person's impact on the environment. Are TBH at their level of operating inefficency really so virtuous after all?

Robin

Hmm

Is beekeeping solely about honey collection alone? What about pollination?


Since there are few beekeepers near me, it matters not if my efficiency is 0%...AND if efficiency is all, why do beekeepers keep many hives on the same site..?

My capital costs are miniscule - reclaimed timber - I'm happy with a small amount of honey - and my bees pollinate locally.

That is sustainable.

Efficiency is good - lets concrete over farms and keep cows in big sheds in its name...:

 

[Brosville]

"operating efficiency" - herrrumph! - I detect absolutely nil understanding of both "sustainability" and "natural beekeeping" - in the simplest and briefest of terms it's about putting the bees FIRST, not about screwing as much honey as possible out of a colony or the countryside.......... (where's an "utter disbelief" smiley when you need it....?)

A Kenyan top bar hive can be made for very little money, by a very inexperienced woodworker from such things as old pallets, populated with a swarm found in the countryside, and can become a big, thriving healthy colony with virtually no manufactured inputs - natural beekeepers tend to leave sufficient stores of honey for them to overwinter on their own natural food, and take what honey their colonies can "spare", it's absolutely nothing to do with "yields", and is eminently sustainable - (unlike superannuated plastic beercoolers that'll be polluting the planet for centuries).

Victorian beekeeping practices are geared to "production" and by the time a newbie hobbyist beekeeper has bought hives, colonies and all the other "essentials" they're probably well on the way to needing to produce and sell honey to defray expenses, whereas a natural beekeeper can end up with 3 colonies, 3 hives, and all the equipment they'll ever need for under £150 all-in (I did), having not pillaged the earth for gobbets of energy and petrochemicals to make some trendy gewgaw that'll end up mouldering in landfill - many natural beekeepers never feed sugar either (which is grown and transported at vast expense to the environment)......etc, etc, etc.........

 

[victor meldrew]

"operating efficiency" - herrrumph! - I detect absolutely nil understanding of both "sustainability" and "natural beekeeping" - in the simplest and briefest of terms it's about putting the bees FIRST, not about screwing as much honey as possible out of a colony or the countryside.......... (where's an "utter disbelief" smiley when you need it....?)

A Kenyan top bar hive can be made for very little money, by a very inexperienced woodworker from such things as old pallets, populated with a swarm found in the countryside, and can become a big, thriving healthy colony with virtually no manufactured inputs - natural beekeepers tend to leave sufficient stores of honey for them to overwinter on their own natural food, and take what honey their colonies can "spare", it's absolutely nothing to do with "yields", and is eminently sustainable - (unlike superannuated plastic beercoolers that'll be polluting the planet for centuries).

Victorian beekeeping practices are geared to "production" and by the time a newbie hobbyist beekeeper has bought hives, colonies and all the other "essentials" they're probably well on the way to needing to produce and sell honey to defray expenses, whereas a natural beekeeper can end up with 3 colonies, 3 hives, and all the equipment they'll ever need for under £150 all-in (I did), having not pillaged the earth for gobbets of energy and petrochemicals to make some trendy gewgaw that'll end up mouldering in landfill - many natural beekeepers never feed sugar either (which is grown and transported at vast expense to the environment)......etc, etc, etc.........

I have removed three supers each from my productive hives (leaving one on each) this will be 90lbs plus per hive .
The one remaining super on each hive will be harvested later (not too late for thymol treatment)
We are still in the middle of a substantial flow here , oodles of balsam, rosebay hasn't finished yet , clover is still in flower as is bramble)ivy hasn't started yet !
I've confined the colonies to One super to encourage storage in brood boxes 14"x12".
I don't expect to have to feed my bees this Autumn but always weigh to make sure ( just because I have the gear to do it ).
If I've squeezed any bee it will have been accidental not to extract the last bit of honey out of it
The bees are as happy as Larry working (they are called workers )
Sustainable ! In the 20 odd years I've been keeping bees in this area, I've noticed the forage has increased exponentially ! They ,through their pollination services have helped the environment rather than suffered it any damage
VM

 

[Mike a]

Just found this video.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilJk52Cd_1o"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilJk52Cd_1o[/ame]

Made me laugh..


Skipping over 90% of the reasons why I laughed so much...

The colony is a fine example of a shocking poor quality nuc.
At least the queen has been introduced already and is still alive unlike some I've heard about. Very little capped stores, very little sealed brood and unsurprisingly very few bees on each frame seen. If this is meant as a publicity stunt it fails on every level to me as I'm sure any bee keeper with a few years under his or her belt would agree and would be very disappointed if they bought this nuc online and this is how it arrived. I for one would be demanding my money back personally. Someone should of at least made the effort to ensure the colony met most bee keeper viewers expectations unless of course the queen is so prolific next year they will be removing queen cells every week and trying to catch multiple swarms.

Would be interesting to see how many dead were at the bottom.

On the plus side... hmm some one may need to help me here..
Any Omlet managers or employees want to chip in as this looks stage managed and if I'm honest not very well done either?
OmletTV ???