ACTUALLY how heavy?

[Hivemaker.]

The only trouble is, if you hold a hive and stand on a scales you can't see the dial

...http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27332

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

it's not just the weight of the boxes you have to consider - it's the double handling of each at every inspection combined with the swivwling of the body whilst moving them, bending, reaching up (had one national deep from a demarree which they swiftly filled with honey this year at head height on the hive) which will take it's toll on the back.

 

[itma]

The only trouble is, if you hold a hive and stand on a scales you can't see the dial…

Digital luggage scales which 'hold' the display reading (once it is steady) are pretty cheap (£7 ish) … and will go up to 50kg.

 

[bjosephd]

Ohhhh kaaayy...!

I tried to make things über clear in my original post! It seems I didn't.

I am mainly curious of the total weights of full brood bodies. I know what it's like to lift particular weights and shapes, I've done it a lot, I know beehives are odd and awkward to handle, that's a given. But I am simply asking for the weight as near as anyone knows of a full brood body (I accept that this will be variable). I have no hives.

I will then be better aware of what someone is talking about when they are talking about the weight of BBx or BBy, as it really does come up a lot in discussions about BB sizes and beekeeping approaches. Until this website's profiles includes max bench press, press, and squat personal bests, I am unable to know what weight they actually mean when they say 'heavy'.

Pete D
The comment about the scales was 100% a joke. Scales under the hives would not tell me the weight of a single section for starters. I completely agree.. somewhat overcomplicating things! ahh haha! Also when it comes to iPhones I am currently 6 models and 2 iOSs behind! I also understand the reason why conventionally BBs and supers are different sizes.

TryingToLetThemBee
"I'd be a bit careful with "virtualizing" bee-keeping"
I really thought it was an obvious joke! I'll be more careful next time! haha
And thanks for the tips and links... I'll get clicking later.

wessexmario
"if you want to weigh each individual box in your hives..."
I have no hives... this is why I'm asking, so I have a better understanding in my research when people refer to the heaviness of stuff (BBs particularly). So for example I know how much work is involved in working with, say, double brood or a one size box approach.

itma
"Roofs vary"
Not looking for the full hive weight or any other bits aside from the boxes.
Also if I could heft some hives I would. However, I have spent a whole career hefting people and various very specify weights in odd shapes and sizes, so I can actualise the numbers. So I am simply looking for an objective weight of various fully stocked up single boxes. I accept that this can be variable depending on wood type or dampness etc.

enrico
"I don't think they have any hives, hence the question to see which one might suit them best!"
YES! THANK YOU!
You clearly read my original post.
"moving brood box's is a fairly rare occurrence"
Less rare if you have double brood I imagine? Or if you are running a one size box approach using national BBs?

REDWOOD
"I think it will be over the maximum weight allowed"
Holy CRAP! If I were to max out my bathroom scales I'd need to be carrying a box weighing a good 10 stone or so! Are you accidentally using kitchen scales in your bathroom? tee hee

jenkinsbrynmair
"it's not just the weight of the boxes you have to consider"
Of course... but I need to know the objective actual weight first before I consider how I might or might not be able to heft it.

 

[enrico]

"I don't think they have any hives, hence the question to see which one might suit them best!"
YES! THANK YOU!
You clearly read my original post.
"moving brood box's is a fairly rare occurrence"
Less rare if you have double brood I imagine? Or if you are running a one size box approach using national BBs?

With double brood it is often practice to only inspect the top one! A risk..... But tht is where queen cells are 'likely' to be.... So no it is not less rare and that is why we don't use one box hives using bb's as a rule because moving a thirty pound super is enough for most of us!
E

 

[REDWOOD]

I suppose some people like to know exactly how much stores are in the hive especially for scientific purposes but if you need to know if your bees have enough stores the old heft is in my opinion the best option without to much disturbance to bees, practice makes perfect and do it often

 

[bjosephd]

enrico
Aha, so if you use double brood, you have to lift or tip a BB. So that's my answer. If I go double brood (rather than 14x12 or commercial) then I'll be lifting a BB... so it's handy to know what weight that decision would have me hefting.

REDWOOD
Wasn't asking about stores. Was just trying to work out the max lifting implications of various potential hive purchase decisions.

So if I think hefting a National BB is too much, then I might go for 14x12. If the weight sounds do-able, then I might go for double brood. Just not made of money, so want to try get as close as possible to a suitable decision first time round.

 

[sussexbaker]

So if I think hefting a National BB is too much, then I might go for 14x12. If the weight sounds do-able, then I might go for double brood. Just not made of money, so want to try get as close as possible to a suitable decision first time round.

A 14x12 is larger then a National. There are slightly smaller hives (such as Rose hive), or you could do OSB with shallows (although if you're concerned about money then suddenly you've got a lot more frames for the same volume of hive).

I'd watch out with your use of terminology, I think by "hefting" you mean carrying/moving, whilst in beekeeping hefting refers to the technique of lifting one side of a hive to get an indication of how heavy it is. You could quite easily heft a Commercial box, but you'd struggle to move it on your own.

 

[enrico]

enrico
Aha, so if you use double brood, you have to lift or tip a BB. So that's my answer. If I go double brood (rather than 14x12 or commercial) then I'll be lifting a BB... so it's handy to know what weight that decision would have me.

Now it's you who are not reding the posts. With a double brood there is not often the need to lift the top bb. If you inspect the frames there is also no need to tip it. Methinks you know more about beekeeping than you are letting on! Get some bees, get the bb full, see if you can left it, if you can't the give it to me and stop worrying about minor things!
Patience ebbing!
E

 

[itma]

enrico
Aha, so if you use double brood, you have to lift or tip a BB. So that's my answer. If I go double brood (rather than 14x12 or commercial) then I'll be lifting a BB... so it's handy to know what weight that decision would have me hefting.

REDWOOD
Wasn't asking about stores. Was just trying to work out the max lifting implications of various potential hive purchase decisions.

So if I think hefting a National BB is too much, then I might go for 14x12. If the weight sounds do-able, then I might go for double brood. Just not made of money, so want to try get as close as possible to a suitable decision first time round.

You seem to be asking the wrong questions - you are coming at it from the wrong direction!

"Hefting" is the winter (and run-up) practice of feeling the weight to judge the amount of stores versus the requirement.
The weight is very largely the contents - bigger box, potentially more stores contained, potentially more weight.

Shifting a hive generally involves moving the whole thing (sealed up) not merely the brood box. Having two people around makes it much simpler, whatever the type of hive.

It is never just a matter of "lifting" the things, like some weightlifter.
It is about avoiding bumping and banging them, and accurately placing them (avoiding squashing bees) which also involves seeing what you are doing.

During routine inspections, frames have to be gently and accurately lifted out and manipulated individually.
This involves finger (and wrist) strength only. A few find large frames (like 14x12) testing, even though the weight involved should never be more than 10 lb, whereas a standard (14x8) National brood frame would likely max out at something more like 7 lb.
For those with a problem, its not the absolute weight that is the problem, rather the control of the weight and the restricted muscles involved.
The short lugs on Commercial brood frames make them more awkward for some beekeepers than the similar weight 14x12 frames.

To get to the brood frames to inspect them, you have to lift off all the boxes above. A single full National crop super could contain 30lb of honey, beyond the weight of the empty box. Not a problem for most, until the stack gets to be about shoulder height - and remember again the need for delicacy.
Commercial hive supers are bigger (thus potentially heavier) hence many choose to use National supers with their Commercial hives.
If you are running multi-brood boxes, you have to lift off the top box(es) if you are going to inspect the bottom one. (As others have stated, some play the odds and rarely do a full inspection.)
Double National could involve you in shifting a box occasionally weighing around 50/60lb … (but there are ways, as mentioned below)
Brood and a half usually has the smaller box on top; it wouldn't weigh more than a full super.

But rewind.
The size of the brood box(es) should be determined by what your bees need. The question then becomes the most convenient way for you to provide that much space.
Single National Deep is a bit small for most modern strains found in the UK. (Though 'black' AMMs might be happy in that volume.)
Brood and a half is plenty space for most. However, the different sizes of brood frame restrict the possible beekeeper manipulations compared to double brood. Its inconvenient AND you have twice as many frames as single brood.
This is where 14x12 (extra deep National) comes in. You get brood and a half space but in a single box with larger (just deeper) frames. Commercial gives a similar space, but with a different frame shape.


The only other time that the weight of whole brood boxes might be relevant is when doing Artificial Swarm manipulations. If at that point you can't get a hand to move a box a yard or two in one action, it is a simple matter to move the frames, one by one into a different box in the new position (you have to go through the frames anyway to find the Queen).

The weight of a "full" brood box is rarely a determining factor.
Other considerations are more important.

Wasn't this covered in your introductory course?
I think you should be asking around at your association, even if (at this time of year) a visit isn't going to get you the chance to do more than "heft" (as above) - though that could be valuable to get a 'feel' for different hive types.


My final observation is that propolis sticking boxes together can dramatically increase their apparent weight - as you are lifting more than just the box that you want to!

 

[bjosephd]

itma

Thank you for your monster reply!

I think I was asking the right question, but it's all rather got out of hand. This is not to do with the direction I am coming to beekeeping from...

I was fundamentally just curious how heavy these boxes actually are, as there always seems to be much disparity in subjective opinion/weight. So I just wanted to know exactly what kind of weight we are talking... so for that, it's the right question.

I am aware of pretty much all you said above (apart from 'hefting' being vocab strictly of feeling the weight, rather than moving a box entirely - my bad. So I meant with 14x12 I'd have less need to ever be lifting a BB - if double brood, then I'll be lifting one more often)

I understand inspections involve delicate manipulations of frames, but occasionally there might be need to move an entire brood box, so was curious what this weight was.

I feel it's a fair thing to consider when choosing between going 14x12 or double brood when laying out cash for your first set up (or even controversially going 'one size box' - but we've already had that discussion!).

I know it's not the most important thing to consider... but fair enough to wonder in order to factor it in. BBs weigh something... it's not unfair to wonder exactly how heavy they can potentially be.

The answer seems to simply be - full national BB = about 30kg
A poly one about 5kg less.

 

[bjosephd]

sussexbaker

Yep, I know 14x12 is bigger... so your brood is all in one box, so you won't need to lift it.

With double brood the boxes are smaller than 14x12, but you have more need to lift the top one for inspections.

And yes... I have learned my 'hefting' terminology now... my bad.

 

[bjosephd]

enrico

Sorry your patience is ebbing! Really don't want to wind people up! I am too late in the season to get bees this year, and so am researching in the meantime... it was merely a curiosity what sort of weights all these boxes are - what weights would I be working with.

I don't know if I know more about beekeeping than I'm letting on... just a massive nerd and since I can't get going until next season, I'm just geeking up on it all.

 

[sussexbaker]

sussexbaker

Yep, I know 14x12 is bigger... so your brood is all in one box, so you won't need to lift it.

With double brood the boxes are smaller than 14x12, but you have more need to lift the top one for inspections.

And yes... I have learned my 'hefting' terminology now... my bad.

I guess I was still thinking about your interest in the Rose method, which has you regularly moving boxes around (swapping the top and bottom in spring, then adding additional boxes in the middle of the brood nest as the colony grows). You'll also see quite a few people talking about nadiring recently which involves moving, usually, a super beneath the brood box(s). So you might find yourself moving those brood boxes around more then you imagine!

Personally I went OSB with poly brood boxes because I'm able to shift that sort of weight around without an issue.

 

[bjosephd]

sussexbaker

Yes, the rose method did sound interesting, and that discussion is when I first wondered exactly how heavy are all these boxes.

OSB with polys sounds interesting.

Nadiring huh... curiouser and curiouser.

 

[Obee1]

I think it is a good idea to spend time researching thoroughly before splashing the cash. I have a double national brood box set up and as the bees filled the top with lots of honey I find it hard to lift it up and set down on the floor in order to access the bottom box. Even my big strong six foot tall husband finds it a difficult manoeuvre. Whilst I knew I wanted to go OSB I wish each box weighed a bit less.
Good luck with whatever you choose

Obee