Testy Bees parting Double Brood

[fast_muchly]

Hi ,

Have 2 hives in woodland that are quite testy not horrible but bordering on it . Does anyone have trouble splitting a double brood . The bees quite often weld the frames together that are in the bottom to the top ones . So as you take the top one off first to inspect the bottom one first you expose grubs etc etc by splitting the propolis and make them straight on the defensive and damn angry . Anyway around this ? or you just have to man up and ignore the 10 trying to savage your little finger until they finally get board or leave there stinger in your gauntlet .

I will admit to not going into there part every other day usually around once a fortnight , but its first time ive had a look today this year . Absolutly going great guns will be taking honey off in 2 weeks there doing that well , bias i didnt spend time looking for the boss as they were quite wound up but i know she is there .

 

[enrico]

Hi ,

Have 2 hives in woodland that are quite testy not horrible but bordering on it . Does anyone have trouble splitting a double brood . The bees quite often weld the frames together that are in the bottom to the top ones . So as you take the top one off first to inspect the bottom one first you expose grubs etc etc by splitting the propolis and make them straight on the defensive and damn angry . Anyway around this ? or you just have to man up and ignore the 10 trying to savage your little finger until they finally get board or leave there stinger in your gauntlet .

I will admit to not going into there part every other day usually around once a fortnight , but its first time ive had a look today this year . Absolutly going great guns will be taking honey off in 2 weeks there doing that well , bias i didnt spend time looking for the boss as they were quite wound up but i know she is there .

I never inspect the bottom brood! Any swarm queen cells are likely to be between the two boxes at the bottom of the top frames. If you split the boxes they hate it and always, in my experience get tetchy. It also means they are open for ages. I would rather risk a swarm than do that every five days! Obviously you have to be prepared for a swarm but you will find some bee farmers do not inspect. They have all bees on double brood, they tip the top box and if there are queen cells they split the boxes. It saves hours of time. But......it is a risk you have to be prepared to take. Find that swarm cells in bottom box are even less likely if it is a shallow box on the bottom.

 

[Boston Bees]

Does anyone have trouble splitting a double brood . The bees quite often weld the frames together that are in the bottom to the top ones . So as you take the top one off first to inspect the bottom one first you expose grubs etc etc by splitting the propolis and make them straight on the defensive and damn angry . Anyway around this ?

Have you tried giving them some foundationless frames so they can draw drone brood? It's usually drone brood that is shoved between frames, because people only provide worker foundation. As such, providing them with the space to draw frames of drone comb could reduce your problem. Maybe you already do this though. Worth a try if not.

 

[drex]

Like Enrico I rarely inspect the bottom box.
Do you have a mix of top and bottom bee space brood boxes? As your problem suggests the bee space is wrong.
I run double brood all year round and rarely have a problem lifting frames out of top box

 

[Anduril]

Hi ,

Have 2 hives in woodland that are quite testy not horrible but bordering on it . Does anyone have trouble splitting a double brood . The bees quite often weld the frames together that are in the bottom to the top ones . So as you take the top one off first to inspect the bottom one first you expose grubs etc etc by splitting the propolis and make them straight on the defensive and damn angry . Anyway around this ? or you just have to man up and ignore the 10 trying to savage your little finger until they finally get board or leave there stinger in your gauntlet .

I will admit to not going into there part every other day usually around once a fortnight , but its first time ive had a look today this year . Absolutly going great guns will be taking honey off in 2 weeks there doing that well , bias i didnt spend time looking for the boss as they were quite wound up but i know she is there .

If you are going to inspect the bottom box, then use your hive tool to break the seal between the boxes and then twist the top box to release the frames below. Another way would be to use cheese wire between the boxes. Once the top box is removed place a spare crownboard over that box, inspect the lower one and then place a crownboard over it, while you inspect the top one. Then smoke and remove the crownboard from the lower box and place the top one above it. Or just using the one crownboard transfer it to the one you will inspect later.

 

[fast_muchly]

Wow so many interesting replies !! .

Right where do i start .Your quite right it was drone brood at the bottom of the frames and it was this causing the problem .

I have 2 hives that are DEEP BROOD and a SUPER and another 2 Hives that are NORMAL BROOD and a SUPER .

This was caused by buying what was basically a gift for £400 on someone that was packing up . I have today bought 3 supers with drawn frames for £10 each what a bargain it looks disease free from a bee keeper that has sadly passed away .

Right , this is what is totally boggling my mind . You dont inspect the bottom brood boxes EVER !!??? . How do you know if there are no swarm cells on the bottom frames on the bottom box ? . Do most people then only just check the upper brood box ? . Im liking that idea it makes it alot easier .

Regarding the Drone cells no there is only normal foundation in the top brood , i wil ltry that and just add some frames see what happens is there any position that is best please ? . In the middle or at the ends .

Alot of good info above and thanks for the replies .

 

[Boston Bees]

Regarding the Drone cells no there is only normal foundation in the top brood , i wil ltry that and just add some frames see what happens is there any position that is best please ? . In the middle or at the ends .

Find the edge of the brood nest, and put the foundationless frame next to that, sandwiched between a frame with brood on, and a frame with stores on. This makes them very keen to draw it out, and I would bet they will draw drone comb very quickly in it.

Personally, I recommend wiring it with some fishing line. I use the second method shown in this video (around 1m40s in). I use 3 horizontal strands. But, you don't have to - if you don't, just be very careful when inspecting it not to turn the frame on its side.

How I use Fishing Line in my Brood Frames - YouTube

 

[enrico]

Another way that helps but is frowned upon by others is to put the two brood boxes at right angles to each other. The bees don't generally make any comb under the top box then! Sometimes it helps to be a little mad! It is risky not inspecting the bottom box but it is also risky taking the top box off and placing it somewhere else and then replacing it. It is easy to squish the queen! Try and keep it as simple as possible. The main question is .... Do you need a larger brood space than one normal brood box? If not then make sure the queen is in the lower box and put a queen excluder under the top box. Over the next three weeks or so the brood will emerge and they will fill it with honey. Obviously it would help f these were shallow brood (super) rather than brood size!
As I say .... I never inspect the bottom box but that is a decision you have to make! .... I am prepared to risk it

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Regarding the Drone cells no there is only normal foundation

which is not a problem for the bees as they will just remodel the comb and create as much drone cells they need - whether the foundation was drone or worker.

 

[drex]

For drone comb I place a shallow frame or two of drawn worker comb at periphery of nest. They fill in under it with drone comb. No need to support it, as it is not too deep.
Note that in my post above I said I rarely inspect the bottom box. It is a judgement call. They will prefer to draw swarm cells on the bottom of the top frame, so if no cells there I can be fairly confident there are no others

 

[Boston Bees]

For drone comb I place a shallow frame or two of drawn worker comb at periphery of nest. They fill in under it with drone comb. No need to support it, as it is not too deep.

It's a good method, especially if you intend to cull the drone comb (which I don't), but one I prefer to avoid as it gets super frames into the brood box, which I have found to be a right PIA in the long term.

 

[deemann1]

Great answers from others here another method is queen excluder between boxes keep queen in bottom box each visit move open larva and eggs up and put sealed brood and empty comb down

 

[fast_muchly]

Thanks guys and gals for your answers .

Think at the moment i dont like the idea of keeping the queen just in bottom box , i dont want to have to micro manage as much as that with each frame and something just doesnt sit right with me restricting the queen to just that box ( with swarming in mind ) . So i think im erring towards putting the top brood at a right angle to the bottom frames and also adding in a shorter depth frame or a foundation less frame to give space for drone cell building . As its most certainly that as whats causing the problem . Although i still think they are slightly testy in temperament anyway .

 

[Bazzer]

Have you tried giving them some foundationless frames so they can draw drone brood? It's usually drone brood that is shoved between frames, because people only provide worker foundation. As such, providing them with the space to draw frames of drone comb could reduce your problem. Maybe you already do this though. Worth a try if not.

That is a good point - I now run my colonies foundationless in multi-storey nuc boxes. I very rarely get burr comb but had not made the connection until now!

 

[Boston Bees]

I now run my colonies foundationless in multi-storey nuc boxes.

Me too!

 

[enrico]

All I would say is don't think that you can stop bees swarming any more than you can stop a teenager having ***! It is the way bees ( and teenagers) reproduce! The queen laying is not reproduction, the bees splitting is. All you can do is try and control it. You will rarely prevent it! Any beekeeper who says their bees don't swarm has just never seen it. 15 mins and it is all over........ Just like ***

 

[pargyle]

Thanks guys and gals for your answers .

Think at the moment i dont like the idea of keeping the queen just in bottom box , i dont want to have to micro manage as much as that with each frame and something just doesnt sit right with me restricting the queen to just that box ( with swarming in mind ) . So i think im erring towards putting the top brood at a right angle to the bottom frames and also adding in a shorter depth frame or a foundation less frame to give space for drone cell building . As its most certainly that as whats causing the problem . Although i still think they are slightly testy in temperament anyway .

You are worrying unnecessarily ... just run your double brood as they are .,,, they will build drone comb wherever they want it, if they need it they will just remodel a section of worker cells. Inspect the top brood box, I would not bother turning the frames at 90 degrees to the bottom box - it won't make a lot of difference.

When you inspect start by easing a corner of the top box up with your hive tool and twist the top box through a few degrees, leave the crown board in place, a whiff or two of smoke or water spray in through the corner and then just tilt the top box back to an angle - don't lift it off completely -look for signs of queen cells on the bottom of the upper brood box frames. Put the box back down and inspect the rest of the top box as you would normally.

It's no big deal ... just an issue of confidence more than anything. The early years of beekeeping are a constant worry but try and limit your worrying to things that matter ... queen cells, disease and space - followed by enough stores, BIAS and when you get to Autumn varroa treatment if you intend to.

 

[pargyle]

All I would say is don't think that you can stop bees swarming any more than you can stop a teenager having ***! It is the way bees ( and teenagers) reproduce! The queen laying is not reproduction, the bees splitting is. All you can do is try and control it. You will rarely prevent it! Any beekeeper who says their bees don't swarm has just never seen it. 15 mins and it is all over........ Just like ***

Bragging again Enrico ?

 

[enrico]

Bragging again Enrico ?

I wish!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

15 mins and it is all over........ Just like ***

That long?!