Syrup construct

[Patrick1]

There is also the problem with Cane sugar I believe, although some argue the odds on Beet sugar re Nionics, I am sure I have read somewhere that Cane sugar is bad for bees.
Cane may become more readily available now the EU punishment tariff on it should disapeared, hopefully it is being listed on the packet particularly as we have been importing most of the Beet from the EU. We may not notice the change over !

 

[oliver90owner]

I really look forward to the syrup thread. Especially when we start to talk of weight/volume/specific gravity and millimoles. RAB’s input as usual gets me scratching my head and a lot of the other posts are wonderful.

I included a link to a site which provided % w/w, g/l and density for a whole range of concentrations of sucrose in water.. Easily found on the net but I don’t know why it disappeared from my reply.

If, as I suspect, it is 2:1 sugar solution that was really needed, the easiest way is to level the sugar in the container, add water to just cover and then stir to dissolve it. I usually chucked in boiling near water, and that was close enough. It’s not rocket scirnce, but the sugar syrup needs to be at a sufficient strength to avoid fermentation.

The less water the bees need to remove, when storing it, the better.

 

[Erichalfbee]

In a nutshell, we all get a bit hung up on sugar ratios - as long as the proportions of light and heavy syrup are roughly 1:1 or 2:1 by either volume or weight, that’s close enough. Bees don’t care about precise percentages as natural nectar can range hugely between 4 - 70% sugar and it’s doubtful that any nectar occurs in these exact ratios! Plus there is no need to pay for inverted syrup as it’s ‘better for bees to digest’ - bees have invertase in their salivary glands which starts to work on nectar to break it down into glucose and fructose and other simple sugars so will do the same with sugar syrup, adding other enzymes in the process to invert and acidify the syrup naturally.
A few other points about the potential dangers of overheating sugar syrup so that (toxic) HMF can form and not using organic sugar as it has a higher ash content than refined (apparently ash can hold extra water in the gut leading to dysentery), benefits of feeding fondant or dry sugar in winter (not syrup which can lead to torpor) and advising that we should worry more about how the bees will access the feed, how cold it will get and how edible it will be rather than being concerned over precise measurements and recipes.

I simply wanted to know what Beecraft said.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I included a link to a site which provided % w/w, g/l and density for a whole range of concentrations of sucrose in water.. Easily found on the net but I don’t know why it disappeared from my reply.

If, as I suspect, it is 2:1 sugar solution that was really needed, the easiest way is to level the sugar in the container, add water to just cover and then stir to dissolve it. I usually chucked in boiling near water, and that was close enough. It’s not rocket scirnce, but the sugar syrup needs to be at a sufficient strength to avoid fermentation.

The less water the bees need to remove, when storing it, the better.

It’s still there

https://lclane.net/text/sucrose.html
This should help those that cannot dissolve 1kg of sugar in 1l of water and measure the volume. Or do the simple calcs frommthe density of 50% sugar solution.

But why anyone would make 50 gallons of 1:1 at this time of the year beats me - unless a large bee farmer.

It would likely ferment before use.

 

[Sutty]

or I think it's 136 litres water to 135 kilos sugar - or thereabouts
1 kilo of sugar to a litre of water makes 1.67 litres 1:1 (ish) syrup

Basing on that 1.67litre figure I calculate like this:

50gallons=227litres
227÷1.67=136
So 136litres water and 136kg sugar.
136litres=30gallons
136Kg=300lb

 

[Moobee]

I simply wanted to know what Beecraft said.

That was it condensed from the 3 page article.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I simply wanted to know what Beecraft said.

which was not very much or indeed useful by the looks of it

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

if their answer to feeding invert was 'bees can invert it themselves' then obviously the writer hadn't put that much thought into it.

 

[bobba]

I have a slightly different approach to making syrup.

I make tiny 5L batches using the following recipe:

4 kg of sugar + 2.5l of water makes 5L of 2 to 1 syrup

What I do is get a 5L bottle, put in 5kg of sugar, then top up with water.

Using the same principle, if you want to make a 50 gallon drum, chuck in 114 KG of sugar, then top up with water.

I know my numbers are different to others. I honestly cannot remember where I got my ratios from and I probably rounded it for convenience. To be honest I think if you dig around you will find many people successfully using different ratios. So dont get hung up on the exact numbers. If I was you I would just chuck in whats convenient. If you have 20k sacks, lob in 6. If you have 25k sacks lob in 5. I am sure it will work either way.

tip, I usually put a little water in the bottom before adding the sugar to stop dry bits getting stuck on the bottom.

I use old 5L cooking oil bottles, I use cold water when mixing, after adding the sugar and water, I just pop them in the airing cupboard, I turn the bottles once or twice a day to mix the sugar, and after about 3 days all the sugar will dissolve. Then I can carry the bottles straight to the hives and pour into the feeders. Obviously not a good system if you have a 100 hives or need syrup in a hurry, but if you just have a handful like me its a low effort way of making syrup.

 

[Moobee]

if their answer to feeding invert was 'bees can invert it themselves' then obviously the writer hadn't put that much thought into it.

It was quite a long article so I may have paraphrased too much or left out something more vital (I’m not a scientist) but it made sense to me as a newbee and demystified the whole sugar syrup thing.

 

[Finman]

Basing on that 1.67litre figure I calculate like this:

50gallons=227litres
227÷1.67=136
So 136litres water and 136kg sugar.
136litres=30gallons
136Kg=300lb

That makes no sense. It is sugar, what bees need for winter. In my hives 20 kg sugar/colony is an average amount. No need to count volumes.

Actually in storing process bees consume 24% out of sugar when they process the liguid from feeding box to capping. It depends too, how much you left honey into the hive for winter.

Measuring is easy, when I feed one box hive full, as long as they take syrup in.
In double brood I use bathroom balance, that I do not feed sugar too much. Double brood can take in 10 kg syrup, than it needs. In spring I am in troubles, if I feed too much.

 

[Finman]

Cold or hot water...

I put loundring pulsator machine full of sugar, 50 kg. Then I pour boiling water to the limit of sugar surface. When the sugar has temperature about 15C, the mixture will be about 30-40C degree.

After mixing the syrup I can pour the mixtute into the feeding box and it is proper temp to the bees.

When syrup is warm, it is easy to bees to take it in.

 

[Markthebuilder]

Decided to do some experimenting with my 8 year old and I publish here our findings:
Basic kitchen equipment and rounding as dictated by the VK

1 liter of purchased Invert weighs 1.36 kg
1 liter of 1 to1 cane sugar syrup weighed 1.2 kg
1 liter of 2 to 1 sugar syrup weighed 1.3kg
1lt sugar dissolved in 1lt water creates = 1.67lt
2lt sugar dissolved in 1 lt water creates 2.35 lt

in the interest of full disclosure I discoverd that 1 bag of sugar (ss) was in fact made from sugar beet-whilst the other (t&l) was cane.
We. could not fully dissolve 2kg into 1lt of water at 20c but at 40c it fully dissolved

 

[Sutty]

That makes no sense. It is sugar, what bees need for winter. In my hives 20 kg sugar/colony is an average amount. No need to count volumes.

Actually in storing process bees consume 24% out of sugar when they process the liguid from feeding box to capping. It depends too, how much you left honey into the hive for winter.

Measuring is easy, when I feed one box hive full, as long as they take syrup in.
In double brood I use bathroom balance, that I do not feed sugar too much. Double brood can take in 10 kg syrup, than it needs. In spring I am in troubles, if I feed too much.

I wasn't commenting on methods, suitability, etc. Just answering the OP's initial question.

 

[Finman]

I wasn't commenting on methods, suitability, etc. Just answering the OP's initial question.

Your explanation was very complicated in simple issue.

 

[Ian123]

[QUOTE="Markthebuilder,We. could not fully dissolve 2kg into 1lt of water at 20c but at 40c it fully dissolved
[/QUOTE]
You can you just need more agitation.

 

[Markthebuilder]

[QUOTE="Markthebuilder,We. could not fully dissolve 2kg into 1lt of water at 20c but at 40c it fully dissolved

You can you just need more agitation.
[/QUOTE]

umm kids /kitchen / sugar syrup/ more agitation? —-I will stick with a little heat but not worry about sugar coming out of solution as it cools then

 

[Boston Bees]

Decided to do some experimenting with my 8 year old and I publish here our findings:
Basic kitchen equipment and rounding as dictated by the VK

1 liter of purchased Invert weighs 1.36 kg
1 liter of 1 to1 cane sugar syrup weighed 1.2 kg
1 liter of 2 to 1 sugar syrup weighed 1.3kg
1lt sugar dissolved in 1lt water creates = 1.67lt
2lt sugar dissolved in 1 lt water creates 2.35 lt

in the interest of full disclosure I discoverd that 1 bag of sugar (ss) was in fact made from sugar beet-whilst the other (t&l) was cane.
We. could not fully dissolve 2kg into 1lt of water at 20c but at 40c it fully dissolved

You need to specify what you mean by "1 to 1" and "2 to 1" in this description. By weight? By volume?

 

[Markthebuilder]

That makes no sense. It is sugar, what bees need for winter. In my hives 20 kg sugar/colony is an average amount. No need to count volums

I believe the reason people want to know the kg of ingredients to make a given volume is because they have a specific size container to store it in.

I have a 25 lt drum and now know how much sugar I need to fill it with 2:1

 

[Markthebuilder]

You need to specify what you mean by "1 to 1" and "2 to 1" in this description. By weight? By volume?

I thought we had already established that the bees allow sufficient tolerance so we can round up or down.
sugar by convention comes 1st in the ratiio

and that sugar and water both have the same weight by volume ie 1lt of sugar weighs 1kg so you can use any size container to measure out your ingredients

unless I have it wrong again